Town Hall Meeting - 22 October 1998

(What follows is a log of the meeting, automatically generated by the eShare software.)

brainstorms:	Salutations!
Chris:	G'Day - I was sleeping
brainstorms:	That's okay - I'm reloading a database & editing perl.
brainstorms:	Which client is best for this? Java Lite or HTML
Chris:	Hi Kathy
KathyKolb:	hiya :>
Chris:	I prefer the full Java or ActiveX - I'm on ActiveX now.
Chris:	I guess your using something like NN3
brainstorms:	Think I'll switch to Java - back in a bit
Chris:	Hey Brain - are you still there?
Chris:	You need to log out, not just exit the browser, otherwise you'll have problems getting back on!
KathyKolb:	he's stuck !
KathyKolb:	in limbooooo
KathyKolb:	what server platform do you use chris?
Chris:	yep - I've been stuck that way myself when I haven't logged out properly
Chris:	The only solution is to create another user name or wait 20mins until it times out.
KathyKolb:	crud
Chris:	My system is Win95
Chris:	I'm using IE4 for this so I can get the Active X chat client.
KathyKolb:	what web servers do you use?
Chris:	You mean as in ISP?
Chris:	Sorry, I get it now
Chris:	PWS on my system
Chris:	Plus two accounts on Unix servers
brainstorms:	FYI - I'm back.
brainstorms:	FYI - I'm back.
Chris:	Oh - and IIS on an NT network for an intranet
Chris:	Welcome back
KathyKolb:	nice splash there
KathyKolb:	do you have IIS running for frontpage?
brainstorms:	Both java clients gave me security errors so I'm back to HTML (which if you hit reload frame can dup msgs) <g>
Chris:	No - had too many problems with FP - I stick with hand coding for most things
Chris:	Still only us early birds here! I suppose the powers that be will appear soon enough.
KathyKolb:	what's your urls chris
Chris:	Still under development mostly
Chris:	http://www.landfood.unimelb.edu.au
Chris:	Basically inherited a bad site - most of the bad part is gone now, but there is still a lot of work needed to fill in the gaps.
KathyKolb:	do you work for the UNiversity?
KathyKolb:	afk
Chris:	Yep - Lecturer in Food Technology
brainstorms:	What is Food Technology?
Chris:	product manufacture
Chris:	also includes product development, engineering, marketing, heaps of stuff
Chris:	About the only field where you can eat your experiments
brainstorms:	Interesting.
KathyKolb:	hehe
KathyKolb:	soooo this is a town meeting .. hmmm
KathyKolb:	always wnated to soo what one was like but am ususally out when they have them
Chris:	Normally the GB members are here by now - don't know what is keeping them.
brainstorms:	Welcome!
ljwolfe:	Hello. I'm adjusting from just being ion IRC a little while ago. Different interface :-).
Chris:	certainly is
ljwolfe:	So, what's up in here?
Chris:	Well, we were just waiting for the organisers to show up
Chris:	I hope they haven't mixed the time zones up - its always embarassing showing up an hour late!
ljwolfe:	I'm pretty sure I put it in my calendar right.
ljwolfe:	//ImageName clover
ljwolfe:	Hm, that didn't work.
Felan:	oy
Felan:	hi guys.
Chris:	Good morning
KathyKolb:	*wave*
ljwolfe:	Did anyone else see that image, or was it just me?
ljwolfe:	hat didn't I mean.
Chris:	I just saw "image" in curly braces
ljwolfe:	That's what I saw.
ljwolfe:	/image clover
ljwolfe:	Nope.
Felan:
Felan:	It's // and then the name of the image.
Felan:	:fooey
Felan:	"Two slashes.
ljwolfe:	//Clover
ljwolfe:
ljwolfe:	Got it. :-)
Chris:	Yeaaaa!!!
KathyKolb:
KathyKolb:	wheee :)
Chris:	Sorry, you mentioned order Leanne?
ljwolfe:	It's slash slash name-of-image
ljwolfe:
ljwolfe:	OK, I'll be quiet now :-).
Felan:	Actually, no, since no one's here yet...
ljwolfe:	How many usually show up? This is my first time here.
Chris:	That's OK - I think everyone is having fun anyway
Felan:	Well, we usually don't get as many as we'd like.
ljwolfe:	This seems to be my day to be in chats. It's International WebGrrls Day, and I've been IRCing with grrls from several continents.
Felan:	This is one of the primary ways we want our members to get used to using for talking to us, at least about 'general' things.
ljwolfe:	Can these chats be logged?
Felan:	I believe they are automatically, and one of the previous ones is available. But I forget where.
Felan:	I've been sick these last two weeks, so I'm lucky I remembered I was supposed to be host of this one. :)
ljwolfe:	I meant is there a way for us to log them.
ljwolfe:	Hope you're feeling better.
KathyKolb:	I'd like to find a chat room I can hang out in as I work .... working alone can drive you goofy
Felan:	Oh, a way for you to. Not that I know of offhand.
Felan:	We're swtiching to WebX, and that might have a better way.
ljwolfe:	I'm looking forward to alone again - my first grader has been home for three weeks.
Felan:	So... I suppose I could start. I'm Leanne, the Secretary, who're all you folks? :)
Kynn:	Hi folks.
KathyKolb:	Hi Kynn
Felan:	Hi Kynn.
Kynn:	Did I miss anything? :)
whirrett:	Hi Kynn. How's the arm?
Felan:	No, not really, Kynn. I'm just suggesting people introduce themselves.
Kynn:	Still broken. :-p
ljwolfe:	Should we be doing intros?
Kynn:	Hi everyone, I'm Kynn, I'm the president of the Guild, have been on the board since summer 1996.
Kynn:	My wife and I run Idyll Mountain Internet, and next Monday I start at Harvey Mudd College as webmaster.
Kynn:	I have 4 Tibetan Mastiffs ( see http://www.tibetanmastiffs.com/ ) which are big fuzzy doggies.
Felan:	Sure, everyone introduce themselves. I want to know who all you are - except Kynn :) - as well as you knowing who I am.
ljwolfe:	Kynn, we're local. I'm in Rialto.
Kynn:	Kewl. :)
KathyKolb:	I'm Kathy, run Kolb Net Works, and owe the HWG much gratitude for all the info they have given me the last 2 years
ljwolfe:	My name is Lorena, and I'm still trying to make the jump from volunteer to paid web developing.
Felan:	That's cool to hear, Kathy. We hardly ever hear the good compliments. :)
whirrett:	My name is Lisa and I have been a member since May of this year. I am a paralegal and mother of a five year old boy.
Kynn:	(where is Rialto?)
Chris:	My name is Chris Higgs. Non-computer related activities include Lecturer at the University of Melbourne, and a volunteer firefighter for our local area.
Chris:	Today I'm here in my capacity of List Guide Manager, to answer any questions the members may have.
ljwolfe:	If you mean the Harvey Mudd in Claremont, I'm just your side of San Bernardino.
Kynn:	Yep! Okay, gotcha.
Felan:	Lecturer, what subject, Chris?
Chris:	Food Technology, specialising in dairy product manufacture
Felan:	Keen.
Felan:	(Says the girl from Vermont, whose family owns a dairy farm...)
Felan:	I do a bunch of things for the Guild - Secretary, one of the VPs, and thusly a Governing Board member. But I don't make my living at html either. :)
Felan:	Normally, we don't come to these with a particular agenda; they're for you guys to ask us questions about how the Guild runs, what the Board's doing, etc.
ljwolfe:	Seems to me that's getting harder. Everyone wants Java, C++, Perl, Unix, or some such
Chris:	It helps I think - not making a living out of web design, lets you take a more objective role in most of the disputes that arise.
ljwolfe:	That frowny looks angrier than I intended.
Felan:	That's part of the reasoning, yah, Chris. :)
Felan:	Everyone does want all sorts of things. Glitz glitz glitz, even for normal pages. :)
ljwolfe:	I'm trying to take the other track, and promote the elegance of simplicity.
Felan:	Do any of you have any questions to ask us?
Felan:	Simplicity is good - you can do things that are simple but elegant and pretty.
Chris:	I guess my multimedia tendencies are showing here, but I place a lot more importance on site design and content before all the glitz and glamour.
ljwolfe:	I'm also concious of older browsers and adaptive teck, which don't handle bells and whistles as well.
Felan:	My brother recently had to come up with a simpler design than a web company did for the company he works at. They gave the owner glitz, like she wanted, but that's not what _worked_ for the site.
ljwolfe:	Content is paramount. I mean, without it, what's the point?
whirrett:	Would it be appropriate for the list guide of each list to post a meeting reminder the night before this meeting to remind the members of the meeting?
Felan:	Now, that's especially important, lj. The good designer - in my opinion anyway - doesn't have to pay a LOT of attention to such issues - but paying just a little gives a huge return. You don't have to view your page in thousands of browser/hardware combos; just validate and view it in a couple standard ones, for instance.
Chris:	And step 2 is how the content is navigated. All the content in the world won't do much good if people can't find what they want.
Felan:	I dunno. I've been thinking about that. We publish it in -news, and then a reminder on -announce...
Felan:	It may just be that far fewer people care about the way the Guild runs, as long as it does run, than we like to think (and have been told). :)
Felan:	Indeed, Chris.
ljwolfe:	BRB....
whirrett:	I must confess that I am a list guide in training and I almost forgot it...
Kynn:	To be honest, Felan, that's my hypothesis. If I weren't on the Board, _I_ wouldn't care how things run. The people who _are_ interested are a vast minority.
Kynn:	Unfortunately.
Chris:	I don't think it should be for the List Guides to remind the members individually. That is what Announce is for, or GB announcements to the lists
Felan:	I really sincerely thought that there would be more people here, after the forums and all that.
Chris:	I agree with Kynn - the members just aren't interested in how the organisation runs, so long as it runs.
Kynn:	That's how I am with organizations I'm in, at least, Chris. :)
Kynn:	Besides this.
Chris:	Even after all the disruption on Business, you can see how little most of the membership really care.
Kynn:	If it gives me what I want, I don't have any reason to waste time with the behind the scenes stuff.
KathyKolb:	may I just say then,
Kynn:	I dunno if I'd say the members don't _care_.
KathyKolb:	how important this org is to some of us quiet ones
Kynn:	I think they do care -- but are generally getting their expectations met.
KathyKolb:	I joined the guild in late 95 / early 96
KathyKolb:	when I learned the code....
KathyKolb:	and learned so much from so many helpful people
ljwolfe:	I don't in here often, but when I got the notice for this I decided to drop by and check it out.
KathyKolb:	that I started a web design company
Kynn:	Oh, by the way, both Chris and I are glad you all came. :)
Kynn:	We don't mean to sound negative -- just reflective.
KathyKolb:	Kynn - I remeber looking at your site early on - when it had those green trees and thinking .. wow!
Chris:	Yep
Kynn:	You were wowed by the idyllmtn green trees? Yikes. :)
brainstorms:	IMHO, a reminder the day before wouldn't hurt.
KathyKolb:	someday maybe I can make groovey green trees that aren't jaggied!
Kynn:	Mine are jaggied, I think
KathyKolb:	along with the amny books and magazines I got, the LISTS have been a classroom for me
KathyKolb:	the digests now (that time is compressed) are such help
whirrett:	I have always intended to come before but got busy with motherhood things and forgot.
ljwolfe:	Kathy, how did you get your company started?
Kynn:	Kathy, can I quote you in marketing material? :)
KathyKolb:	for us solo folks working alone in a room - the lists bring comrades into our workspace, helping me feel less isolated
Felan:	Kathy, that sort of thing is what I love to hear, about how much you've learned. It helps us feel that we on the Board are doing something useful.
KathyKolb:	in our small rural setting, there is LITTLE expereince in this new media world, yet into my emailbox comes wisdom from mostly friendly people
KathyKolb:	the HWG has been one of the MOST HELPFUL things in my companies development. period.
Felan:	I've learned a lot myself, since I started in the Guild, but I like to hear about it from some of the 'quiet members'.
KathyKolb:	<= sits back down
Felan:	Watch our egos swell. :)
Chris:	I think it is important for the GB to set out their aims at the start of each year - like you did with your new year's list this year Kynn
Chris:	It is easy to overlook the progressive improvements
Kynn:	Have you looked at the list lately? :)
Kynn:	I'm pretty pleased with our accomplishments thus far
Chris:	Looking back at a wish list like that highlights what progress you have made.
Chris:	I agree - things are going well.
Chris:	Some things work, some don't, but you don't know unless you try them.
Felan:	We've definitely made serious improvement in a lot of areas.
Kynn:	There's something I'd like to get member feedback on:
Kynn:	What next?
Felan:	So _can_ we use your comments in Marketing material, Kathy? :)
KathyKolb:	certainly, I owe HWG a lot
ljwolfe:	Kathy, how did you get your company started? I'm trying, but can't seem to get a break.
whirrett:	What next?? More classes!!!
Kynn:	As Chris says, it's important for the Guild leadership to set direction -- with member input, naturally. I'd like to know what things you might like to see from the Guild in the next year or so.
KathyKolb:	I made a web site for our local computer club, enjoied doing it, so started a company
KathyKolb:	joined the local chamber, did some free stuff for organizations and a radio station for 6 months then let them decide whether or not to hire me which they did...
Chris:	For whoever wanted the past town meeting logs:http://www.hwg.org/opcenter/events/townhall.html
Felan:	Classes are good, eh? I'm very pleased with most people's reaction to the classes, too.
whirrett:	I learned so much in the Intro to HTML class, things I thought I knew already but found out I was a little off base.
Kynn:	whirrett, some of the coolest people are in my stylesheets class, I'm enjoying just getting to meet/interact (virtually) withthem. :)
whirrett:	The CSS class is proving to be extremely helpful.
KathyKolb:	just kept being involved with community, phone starts ringin, biggest problem now is handling growth
Kynn:	Are you in the class, whirrett?
whirrett:	You can read the bits and peices on the lists but the classes help to bring it all together.
Kynn:	I don't recognize 'whirrett' as a name I know, but that doesn't mean I don't know you. :)
whirrett:	Yes I am in your class
Kynn:	Cool, who're you?
ljwolfe:	Kathy, thanks. I'm trying to work from home so I can be here for my son, and I don't have the car in the daytime, so it's been hard getting started.
KathyKolb:	how big of a market (population) are you in?
Kynn:	ljw, I think Ann is trying to find someone to teach a "starting your own web business" class. (No promises since it depends on an instructor, of course. :) )
Chris:	I wonder if Judi (Business LG) would be interested - she has her own business
Kynn:	Hmmm I'll have Ann check with her. ;)
ljwolfe:	I'm in inland Southern California. Close enough to Los Angles that there seems to be lots of designers, but not close enough to make the commute to the LA jobs.
ljwolfe:	Kynn, you're local, how would you describe it?
Felan:	Ah, yeah, population density is hard.
KathyKolb:	how big is your local town?
Kynn:	Southern California can be a real annoying place to do web stuff, yes. :)
Kynn:	Most of the web jobs are "new media jobs" in Santa Monica or the west side of LA or the valley, I've found.
Kynn:	And it's hard to find good new business as a freelancer.
KathyKolb:	lj, give me your url
ljwolfe:	Rialto is fairly small, but this is an urban sprawl. There's two large cities (county seats of big counties) within a 15-20 minute drive.
ljwolfe:	My business site isn't quite how I'd like it yet (needs tweeking), but it's at <http://start.at/webweaving>.
KathyKolb:	do you want to build small brouchure type sites or larger, database backed sites?
ljwolfe:	Smaller ones. I'm familiar with dbases, but not the newer ones.
ljwolfe:	*sigh* Fast moving field, and a 10 year old degree isn't worth much.
KathyKolb:	degree in what?
ljwolfe:	I learn fast, though, given the chance. I just haven't had the chance on those yet
Felan:	Try with the town/city government, maybe, see if they don't have a web page and want one?
ljwolfe:	Computer Science.
Kynn:	Town/city contracts are hard to get.
ljwolfe:	From Cal Poly Pomona, which at least Kynn should recognize :-).
KathyKolb:	do you want frank advice?
Kynn:	Yay, Cow Poly.
ljwolfe:	That's a thought. The city has one, but it's not very impressive.
ljwolfe:	<giggle>
ljwolfe:	Yes, please, Kathy.
KathyKolb:	did you do the moondance, it looks differnet than others?
ljwolfe:	Moondance was an existing e-zine when I started there two issues ago. I work on two departments, and follow their existing style.
KathyKolb:	what graphic program are u using?
ljwolfe:	I have Aldus PhotoStyler.
ljwolfe:	I'd like to upgrade, but it takes I can't spare.
KathyKolb:	I had a similair situation as you might - I came from a programming background and had little to no art talent. Desire, interest yes, talent no.
KathyKolb:	but the good news is you can overcome that, I think it's tougher to learn systems than to make pretty images now
KathyKolb:	r u using a mac then?
ljwolfe:	The artisitc talent in the family skipped me. My sister is a profession graphic artist, though. She went the other way - art to computer.
ljwolfe:	No, a PC, win 3.11.
KathyKolb:	ok - fine. get inspired. go lok at beautiful sites - sites that make you want to cry for not being able to make sites as nice as them
KathyKolb:	like http://www.highfive.com/
KathyKolb:	go to www.ebay.com and buy a used David Sigel boof for 4 bucks
KathyKolb:	(book)
KathyKolb:	go to your local library and read their art books, even from the 70s, and learn about color relationships (complementary, harmonic, etc)
KathyKolb:	read the old typography books there and learn about color, texture, form, space, and how to USE them in your presentation - this info has not changed - just the Medium
KathyKolb:	use blockquotes, tables, cell colors to set off areas, use imagse padding to give images space around them
ljwolfe:	I remember some of that stuff from my ex's books - he was an art major.
KathyKolb:	go look at the BIG sites, like wall street, cnet, amazon, zdnet, boston.com etc and try to analyze WHY they are laid out like they are
ljwolfe:	Did you look at the Callahanian Army of Light site?
KathyKolb:	yes
KathyKolb:	I'd rather see a "family" of colors used on that page - colors that look comfy being next to each other
Kynn:	Aie bright yellow :)
brainstorms:	Been an interesting 1.5 hr, but I've gotta to bail
KathyKolb:	when you start a site, determine a few colors you'll use
Kynn:	Thanks for coming by, brainstorms!
KathyKolb:	here's one of my first color family sites: http://www.wksb.com
KathyKolb:	white, red, black - very basic
Felan:	Make sure, always, that your text stands out against the background.
Kynn:	Color choices are good -- it's kinda spread out a bit, though, Kathy. (Not a big criticism.)
KathyKolb:	but you get the idea - take control of your color usage - make it WORK for you and the information you're presenting
Felan:	I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain that red text doesn't work on a black background. :)
Kynn:	Colors are a real bitch at times.
Kynn:	Heh Felan
KathyKolb:	no - you're right - it's a loooong opening page
Kynn:	Black backgrounds are simply awful.
ljwolfe:	Re yellow: I wanted a color that said "light", and I try to stay with the 256-safe pallet. The next paler shade felt too whimpy for the feel I wanted that site to have.
KathyKolb:	so maybe make the title and headers a color that plays well with the yellow?
Kynn:	lj, these days I'm very much favoring white/plain backgrounds myself. You might want to do something like a 'sidebar' in a certain color.
Kynn:	bazillions of major sites use sidebars all the time, and they're pretty effective -- people seem to understand them.
ljwolfe:	I do heraldry as a hobby, so I'm familar with maintining contrast.
Felan:	My brother has a tendency to use textured backgrounds; they work, usually, but are sometimes awkward.
KathyKolb:	and then, get those text images anti aliased
Chris:	I've always been a white background enthusiast, but the advent of WebTV makes me reconsider
Felan:	He usually does a light grey and the texturing as a slightly darker grey.
ljwolfe:	anti aliased?
Felan:	You know, heraldry DOES explain why red text on a black background doesn't work. Thank you for explaining it to me. :)
Kynn:	? Felan
KathyKolb:	they need to be created in a "true color" mode so that they don't have the jaggy look
whirrett:	I came across a site with a black background that is neat IMHO. Clever idea anyway. It is at http://www.io360.com/v2/oy/profiles/index_dhtml.html
Kynn:	Chris, in my opinion, if 'pure white' is broken in webtv, the user agent should correct that by downgrading it to offwhite transparently.
ljwolfe:	Color on color :-). Say, do you know March over at I forget which college?
KathyKolb:	images made in 256 color mode will look rough
Kynn:	March? Nope.
ljwolfe:	Duh, I was thinking of Kynn. Sorry.
Kynn:	Now I'm confused. :)
Kynn:	I know this Kynn fellow. ;)
Chris:	It is more than just that - TV 's handle colour differently to computers. What works well on computers is the complete opposite for TV
Felan:	The basic heraldry thing, Kynn, is that colors aren't put on colors and metals aren't put on metals. Bad contrast. Metals are gold and silver; colors are usually green, blue, red, black, sometimes purple.
KathyKolb:	I'm starting to run images thru the NTSC filter as a practice now due to web tv
Kynn:	Yeah, but I think there should be an in-user-agent adaptation algorithm to handle that, Chris. :)
Felan:	Usually the metals translate to white and yellow.
Kynn:	But anyway
Chris:	It is almost a case of having two colour systems - one of the reasons I liked your colour changer using CSS you played with some time back.
ljwolfe:	March is a herald who attends one of the Claremont Colleges.
Kynn:	Yeah, I should post that URL to my CSS class.
Kynn:	I dunno any SCA folks, sorry. :)
ljwolfe:	At least he got the reference.
ljwolfe:	Not too many other places to *do* heraldry in the US these days.
whirrett:	Actually the guy who I do subcontract work for sent me that URL and said he considered that to be an excellent example of designing with the latest and greatest.
Kynn:	Which URL?
Felan:	If you have Usenet access, lj, check rec.heraldry. There's a batch of people there who are more real-world.
whirrett:	http://www.io360.com/v2/oy/profiles/index_dhtml.html
KathyKolb:	this has been fun, but I need to turn in. Best of luck LJ, just keep at it and you'll do OK. Nite all
ljwolfe:	Yeah, but they turn their noses up at we lowly SCA heralds, more often than not :-(.
Felan:	Thanks for coming, Kathy.
ljwolfe:	Thanks a lot, Kathy!
Felan:	They do when someone expects them to know SCA heraldry. :)
ljwolfe:	Anyway, my Usenet server stinks, so I have to resort to DejaNews.
Kynn:	Here's a fun URL: http://www.hwg.org/working/kynn/styles.html
ljwolfe:	Are you, by chance a herald and/or a SCAdian?
Kynn:	It's one that Chris refered to earlier, it uses CGI scripts, cookies, and stylesheets to change the look of the HWG homepage.
Felan:	I used to pay the SCA although I never did an event. Got an interest in heraldry then. I'm not a herald, though, even RL.
Felan:	I looked with Netscape once, Kynn, and didn't see a whole lot of difference.
Felan:	But then I wasn't necessarily paying much attention at the time.
Chris:	Works well in IE4
Kynn:	Well, you suck, Felan. Errrrr. :)
Kynn:	In Netscape 4 you should at least be able to change it to blue and grey and "old guild look"
Felan:	*smack*
ljwolfe:	I'm the deputy to the baronial herald for Dreiburgen.
Kynn:	Was that a "hit in the head" smack or a "cute peck on the cheek" smack?
Kynn:	boo hoo
Kynn:	Okay, Liz and I are going out to Olive Garden
Kynn:	Thanks for coming by, everyone!
Felan:	Hit on the head and you know it.
Felan:	G'night Kynn.
Chris:	good night
Kynn:	ljw, if you want to do lunch sometime next week or later (when I'm working at HMC) lemme know, we'll get together other web people or something.
Kynn:	('do lunch'. So El Ay!)
Felan:	Any of the rest of you have anything else you want to ask about the Guild? :)
ljwolfe:	I'll let someone else talk for a change :-).
whirrett:	Nothing more from me. I have to get my boy to bed. Been nice talking to all of you. Good night...
ljwolfe:	Good night!
Chris:	Well, since I'm here to answer questions on the LGP - LJ - what do you like/dislike about the current mailing lists?
ljwolfe:	Well, I havn't actually gotten on any of them yet. I need to take a look at the options again.
Chris:	No probs.
ljwolfe:	And consider if I want to drop any of the lists I'm already on, since it's becoming a significant chunk of my day keeping up.
Chris:	I certainly know that feeling!
ljwolfe:	The two SCA lists can be over 100/day, worse when there's a hot topic!
ljwolfe:	Then there's the PBeM that I'm web mommy for, and my husband has been GM for the last couple of months.
ljwolfe:	Hi, will!
will:	Hi
Chris:	That is something I suppose should be listed with the charters - the email volume.
Chris:	Hi Will
ljwolfe:	That would help!
will:	Hi Chris
will:	How was the meeting?
Chris:	Not exactly on topic, but we all seemed to have fun
will:	Good. Did I miss anything that I should know about?
ljwolfe:	I know I got some good info.
Chris:	Only a chance to talk to some of the GB members on a more personal level - Leanne is still here
will:	Do they post the dialog?
Chris:	Yep!
Chris:	http://www.hwg.org/opcenter/events/townhall.html
will:	Great, I'll print it off tomorrow at work. I wanted to be here but it didn't work out.
Chris:	Well, you can still ask questions!
will:	What was the topic tonight anyway?
ljwolfe:	I need to go. Household stuff that needs to be dealt with. I'll have to keep an eye out for meetings more often :-).
Chris:	catch you later!
will:	By lj
Chris:	We were supposed to be discussing the mailing lists, but we never really got that far. Ended up talking about starting web design businesses
will:	Ah, that's a good topic...I'm very interested in that.
will:	The web design stuff
Chris:	The log should be available in a few days. Previous logs are available on the site.
will:	I'm currently in a c++ programming class and am trying to teach myself java
Chris:	I've done a bit of C but personally don't have the time to learn more. I'd like to learn Java.
Chris:	Kynn mentioned that there may be an online class in the future on starting up a web design company
will:	I asked my professor the difference and he said java is just C++ with out pointers
Chris:	*LOL*
will:	I think that would be a good class...but hard to teach...it's such a wide topic
Chris:	Getting a good instructor was the current delay :-)
will:	I think Dr. Ralph Wilson ( i think that's his name) has done an excellent job in the business...he's also written several books on the subject
Chris:	I expect they are looking for someone who would be willing to volunteer their services.
will:	he might. he does a lot of work both fee and fee-less
will:	hehehe
Chris:	Leanne - can you make a note of that for Kynn?
will:	I think it is www.wilsonweb.com or net
Chris:	Probably the best way would be to have a couple of instructors in that type of topic. Get a couple of different views.
will:	I agree. I've been cruising the web for a couple of weeks now just viewing big name sites for ideas of how to setup. The varities are endless
Chris:	I don't make a career out of web design, so I'm probably not the best to ask :)
Chris:	Then again, I've seen the sites of some "budding web designers" and know I can do better!
will:	Actually, you would probably be the best to ask. it seems to me that the end user who will be using the site is the best to ask
Chris:	About design certainly, but not about the rest of the business to running a web design shop.
Chris:	There are things like drawing up contracts, dealing with problem customers, advertising and marketing, etc.
will:	Oh, yeah, but design and content are some of the most important parts of the web design business...lawyers can help with some of that other stuff
Chris:	We mentioned this before. We agreed that content was #1 when it came to web sites.
Chris:	Site design as opposed to page design is what I believe should be #2
will:	Have you seen the yale web design guide? I just started reading it
will:	I agree
Chris:	Ages ago! Neilson is one of my favourites for suggestions.
will:	cool. I printed it off and have just started reading it tonight. I've been trying to set aside time for months now
Chris:	http://www.useit.com/

End of meeting.