HTML Writers Guild Guild Operations Events 990128 Meeting

Town Hall Meeting - 28 January 1999

(What follows is a log of the meeting, automatically generated by the eShare software.)

gerald: ohno
gerald: whee
gerald: blah
SaraJack: Hello Gerald.... didn't expect anyone else to be here this early
gerald: Hi there. I wanted to make sure my client worked...
SaraJack: I've a bad habit of being early to things....I hate being late so I thought I would just come and wait around for awhile
deeknow: Hi Foilks
SaraJack: Hello dee...
SaraJack: What time do you have, timezone too please...
deeknow: TZ = GMT + 12, Im in NZ
deeknow: Time is 3:30pm
deeknow: & U guys?
SaraJack: okay thanks.... it's 9:30 here then...
deeknow: Whats on the Agenda?
SaraJack: I'm not sure.... So far it's just us three....
deeknow: I've gotta rush out in a few minutes, will have to pop back in about 20mins, might C Uz then
SaraJack: Okay, I'll tell you what you miss...
deeknow: Is the town meeting a regular fixture
SaraJack: It's monthly....
deeknow: Is it mainly HWG stuff or technology related sorta issues?
SaraJack: Oh, I'm sorry.. Didn't understand your question there.....
SaraJack: Both really... but it's more HWG stuff
deeknow: Is the meeting to discuss membersip and admin of the Guild, or is it more about standards, technology, HRML, CSS etc?
gerald: Chris?
hubick: hi gerald :-)
SaraJack: About that... I'm not sure....I don't know what the Agenda is...
gerald: Wow! Hi there, long time no talk...
hubick: has been a while!
hubick: Gerald: life is good?
deeknow: OK, thanx SJ
SaraJack: You're welcome Dee...
gerald: yeah, very good... how are you doing?
deeknow: Does HWG still have a W3C membership?
gerald: yes.
hubick: I'm good. Graduated a couple years ago, programming full time in Java for 3 years now.
gerald: More information on our W3C activities is at
hubick: gerald: check out sometime!
deeknow: Thanx Gerald !
gerald: yes, I went there a while ago...
SaraJack: Is it just us four tonight?
gerald: It seems so; I thought there would be a lot more people.
hubick: Gerald: you check out my XML analyzer?
SaraJack: Hmm.... I did too...
gerald: I'm scared to try now... Java on Linux is still a bit too flaky
hubick: Hey gerald, when is the validator gonna have support for HTML 5, not till it's a rec?
gerald: Probably later today; I'm working on it right now. :-)
hubick: I am debating if moving my page over now is a bad or a good thing
gerald: Actually, I had most of it done before the WD was released, but then I got sidetracked on some other stuff.
deeknow: What's new in HTML5 in a nutshell?
hubick: Its XML!!
hubick: yeah
deeknow: Ahhh.....DOH !
hubick: Now all the world needs is Mozilla, and I can die a happy man
deeknow: Anyone played with IE5, howz the XML engine?
hubick: I'm scared to try IE5...win98 crashes enough already :-)
hubick: I have gecko (Mozilla/Netscape 5) but haven't tried aiming it at any XML yet...has anyone?
deeknow: XML in IE4 was just for MS Channels huh?...not really full XML support?
gerald: I downloaded it from the CVS server a few months ago and compiled it, but couldn't keep it running long enough to do anything interesting.
gerald: I did a CVS update last weekend, but haven't recompiled yet.
hubick: I am pretty sure they haven't integrated James Clarks Expat parser yet
gerald: It was added to the tree a few months ago, but I don't know if it's the default one used. I think it probably is.
deeknow: C Yaz....gotta dash
SaraJack: Sorry about that....
SaraJack: Did I miss anything?
gerald: Not really. :)
SaraJack: Gerald did you get my question?
gerald: Yes, and I responded, but that's when you disconnected.
SaraJack: Would you mind repeating it?
hubick: So is the HWG ever gonna change their something like the MarkupWG
AndieP: I'm a brand new member. What happens at these chat mtgs
gerald: No problem... I just said I wasn't completely sure, but I expect the instructor would be contacting you near the start of the class.
gerald: MarkupWG: I don't think so. :) I don't expect HTML to go away any time soon, even if it does become an application of XML instead of SGML.
AndieP: other than people chatting
SaraJack: Okay... Thanks Gerald.. I was getting a little worried because I hadn't heard anything yet...
gerald: But we've registered just in case. :)
AndieP: what i mean is is there a specific agenda,
hubick: hahah! LOL
AndieP: or is it laiser faire
gerald: AndieP: I don't think we have an agenda. Do you have any questions?
gerald: Did you all hear that Yahoo bought Geocities today?
SaraJack: they did?
gerald: Yup. $4.6B.
tee: Not billion?
hubick: _rip_off_
AndieP: Yes I heard, I'm a member
gerald: Oops, looks like $5.02B now. Yes, billion. (!)
SaraJack: Wonder what Yahoo has in mind...
tee: Gotta start a free site....
hubick: slam together a couple servers for some free homepages, some clever add scheme...5 Billion...don't think so Tim!
gerald: Well, it's a stock swap, and Yahoo has tons of that...
gerald: Chris: yeah, I can't believe I didn't do this a couple years ago, it would have been so easy.
tee: There's still something that hasn't been done, I'm sure of it.
hubick: Yahoo sucks....they don't even keep their links up to think they could at least check for 404's once a year or so
gerald: I'm still kind of pondering it... it wouldn't be too hard to get a bunch of users, then someone would just buy your company to add a few hundred thousand users to their site or something.
gerald: Same goes for Hotmail, Linkexchange, etc... Each of them purchased for $300M+
SaraJack: Hubick-true..
hubick: gerald: make a server for "geek" type people, market through slashdot
tee: I read the article about LinkExchange in Business 2.0. 250 Million
hubick: a geek portal
tee: Good idea
hubick: I can't beleive I just said that
gerald: I was talking to the W3C rep from Microsoft last November, he mentioned a lot of interesting things about MS's acquisition of Linkexchange.
SaraJack: I hate my computer...
tee: It seemed to have happened quite quickly, the buy from Microsoft
SaraJack: So what has MS bought lately?.... or who are they planning on buying up?
hubick: MS's horizontal market movement scares the hell out of me...they could become a monopoly over every aspect of the telecomunications industry
gerald: i.e. its purpose wasn't just to get banners all over the place (and revenue from banners), but Linkexchange happens to have banners on > 50% of the sites on the Web, and they can use cookies to track where everyone goes; that's where the real money is (user profiles/tracking)
SaraJack: I agree hubick, sooner or later MS is going to be it..... that's all that is going to be out there...
hubick: I think MS should buy ZDNet
gerald: ohno
tee: Who's going to buy HWG?
hubick: w3c
Ryan: Oh yeah -- MS bought HWG last year, I think! ;-) (Or was it the year before?)
gerald: I can't say I see that happening. :)
SaraJack: *L*
tee: Yeah, what's a couple of million anyway?
hubick: the wrc should buy netscapes browser business from AOL
hubick: w3c that is
SaraJack: w3c, what's that all about?
hubick: I guess they've got Amaya (yippe)
gerald: buy? how do you buy open source software?
gerald: just take it. :)
hubick: it's the developers that matter, not the licence
hubick: they should hire them all, and fund mozilla development
gerald: I think most of the key Mozilla developers are independently wealthy by now (the ones that have been there from the start, anyway), and they're just doing it for fun now.
hubick: There arent a lot that have been there since the start though
gerald: True.
hubick: Is JWZ rich?
SaraJack: Bill Gates is he the richest in the world now?
gerald: you betcha.
gerald: (re jwz, I mean)
jb: Hi All! Sorry for lateness. Just took me 15 mins to log into this stooopid thing. Used to work great with NN4.03 but boogers completely with 4.08.
gerald: Bill Gates: yes. BTW, he's up around $100B now.
gerald: Hiya jb.
hubick: And MS just blew away estimates this he's gone up again probably
gerald: Yup, $98.25B
SaraJack: You know I've always wondered what it was like to pay off a car with one check before..... but not Bill Gates he's probably thinking of buying a small island somewhere...
hubick: money He's Loaded!
hubick: a small australia
gerald: I forget what the exact dollar amount was, but I heard something like: if Bill Gates sees a $500,000 dollar bill on the ground, it isn't worth his time to stop to pick it up
SaraJack: *L*
SaraJack: the closest I've come to a M is a fake Million dollar bill I bought somewhere for a buck....*L*
bbndo: Hi /aint it amazing how much doe he can make and still turn CSS into so much used horse feed?
hubick: IE4's css is the best shipping implementation out there
tee: What does everyone think about standards now that you mention it?
gerald: so how many of you use CSS? (or try to...)
SaraJack: css?
Ryan: I always use it.
hubick: My homepage is all HTML4 strict and CSS
gerald: Standards are important! (but I'm biased. :)
tee: I'm learning but the more I learn, the less I know.
Al Heigl: I avoid it on the theory of accomodating older browsers.
SaraJack: tee- that's me also..
gerald: Mine ( is valid HTML 4 transitional and has a little CSS, but I haven't really gotten into it yet.
AndieP: I've never used but would like to learn
hubick: I even have a little CSS2 for font downloading in there!
tee: I think I'll take Kynn's CSS course in March
SaraJack: Andie- me too... haven't had much time to get into it..
bbndo: I have studied it and tried it but found that I had to double up to accomodate old browsers then not use many styles because IE and Netscape each are going there own way...In the end it was more work than it was worth... g
gerald: Would like to learn, eh? :-)
bbndo: Great Idea though!
hubick: gerald: eh? lol
AndieP: I'm already signed up for the HTML 4 course
SaraJack: Gerald, I'm thinking about it..... *s*....
tee: I've taken the XML course and the Accessibility course. Great stuff.
SaraJack: tee- you reccomend it?
hubick: If people want to learn CSS, download the developer preview of Gecko from Netscape to practice's implementation is the only sane one out there
tee: I work the gov't here in Victoria and we have thousands of pages that don't validate, whew. I read that it's law through the ADA in the States that .gov and .org have to comply. Is that right?
jb: Gecko, is it 'accessability aware' or a 'Win thing'?
hubick: Gecko is the codename for Netscape 5
gerald: ADA requires certain gov't (federal?) material to be accessible; I'm not sure if they require validation.
gerald: But the accessibility guidelines probably include validation anyway...
hubick: we should make all the version 5 browsers not display HTML which doesn't validate!
gerald: haha, that would go over well.
tee: We are in big trouble here, 'cause the same thing is going to happen here. Been trying to spread the word but no luck....
Ryan: Things are heading in that direction with XML. It's a good thing!
SaraJack: hubick- that wouldn't necessarily work......
hubick: they should have done that from the beginning!
gerald: yup.
bbndo: Does anyone else see a need for the HWG to use its voie to express our dissatisfaction with the way W3C CSS1.0 has been implemented by IE and Netscape?
hubick: WaSP (Web Standards Project) -
gerald: That's an interesting question.
hubick: bbndo: go check them out
bbndo: Ok.
hubick: the HWG could show some support for WaSP
hubick: they are lobbying the browser makers...and doing fairly well I hear
jb: W3C can voice its opinion; HWG carries no weight.
gerald: We have:
gerald: "Web designers shouldn't have to waste 20% of their time just because the
gerald: oops, cut-n-paste didn't quite work.
hubick: cool
gerald: ...browser makers can't follow standards."
SaraJack: true...
hubick: I think Netscape 5 will become the standard for content authors...for the first time In my life, I would almost not mind a "Best viewed with Mozilla"
bbndo: the closer truth is tht they are very competitive and won't follow standards if not doing so will give them a competitive advantage
gerald: Yes, I'm really looking forward to its release. I think that will put more pressure to MS to improve their implementation, and they'll continue to race.
hubick: It is the first browser which will allow the web to be the way it was really meant to be
SaraJack: well, I am afraid it is time for me to leave......I wish I could stay but it is 10:21pm and my bed is calling.....
bbndo: When is Net-5.0 due out?
SaraJack: yeah when is it due out?
hubick: bbndo: there is no release date yet...don't hold your breath..I would say at least 6 months from now...up to 2000
SaraJack: hmm.... something to look forward too..
tee: Isn't it true that browsers, as such, will be in the minority in a few years? Internet devices will proliferate.
hubick: Internet devices still use browsers though..just embedded...and Mozilla is small, so it should work well for that
SaraJack: well... G'night
gerald: tee: there will definitely be more and more of that, but I don't see it happening quickly (within 2-3 years); certainly within 5-10
gerald: good night SaraJack
AndieP: good night SaraJack
bbndo: That would be nice - and good for all of us...The more players providing service, the more they will be pressured to fully comply with standards in order to win users.
tee: Exactly
gerald: Unfortunately most current content on the Web doesn't display well on alternative devices, so people working on e.g. PDA or mobile phone browsers have a really tough job ahead of them.
hubick: I wanted to buy my grandparents a WebTV for Christmas..but I couldn't bear to because of the crappy browser..and thats what it was built for!
bbndo: first generation stuff is often crap...Too much pressure to beat the competition and get it out in time for the Christmas re\season!
jb: H, WebTV is -GREAT- for the PC-impaired, regardless of 'browser'.
bbndo: Do you think my 79 year old mother would use one? Is it EASY to use for email and surfing?
gerald: It's definitely a good concept; I haven't seen it myself so I don't know how well the current implementation is.
gerald: ...implemented, or something like that. (I hate typing when I can't see the whole sentence at once.)
hubick: I would rather buy them a 486 with Linux that boot straight into mozilla rather than a window manager
tee: I found it cumbersome because I was used to a mouse..
jb: g, go to local Sears, they ususally have one installed. You'll be surprised how -good- a 'width independant' site looks.
bbndo: Thanks for the tip...Good night ya all!
hubick: gn bbndo
gerald: I'm pretty careful to make everything width-independent... I hate it when I have to scroll horizontally because someone else mis-guessed my browser width.
jb: Dunno how 'easy' it is, but how difficult could it be with 'no PC'. [G]
gerald: Today I noticed some pages on Yahoo! that have a horizontal scrollbar in NS4.08 no matter how wide the window is. (e.g: )
hubick: I make sure any graphics will fit fine on a VGA screen, but less than that...I think they should use text...which also works fine on my site
tee: There was a site in New York that was great because one had to scroll horizontally and follow a story. But that's rare.
gerald: Even if I make the window 2000 pixels wide, it still has a horiz scrollbar! (probably NS's fault, though.)
deeknow: Man !!! 2000px....what is it...a 40" screen <g>
hubick: works fine on ie4
gerald: 2000px: no, I just have a lot of virtual desktops (4x4, 16 desktops total... and I use most of them. :)
jb: g, that's gotta be a version thing. I can narrow it down to 500p and it fits.
hubick: might be a linux thing
gerald: Strange. That's with NS4.08 on Linux.
hubick: gerald: you got 2.2.1 yet?
gerald: No; we have a few machines here running 2.2.0, but I haven't done my desktop machine yet.
deeknow: R there Netscape builds still coming out for HPUX ?
hubick: I haven't bothered either..yet..might wait for RedHat 6 :-)
gerald: I ordered a scanner last weekend and it arrived today; I'm going to see if I can hot-plug it when I get home. :)
gerald: HPUX: not sure.
hubick: gerald: I gotta nice Fuji mX700 digital rocks!
deeknow: Any-1 played with storing images in a database?, I wanna write something to pick out a piece of a large GIF and have it stored in Oracle or SQLServer.
gerald: So, does anyone here use the HWG mailing list archives? I think I'm going to spend most of this weekend working on the archive software; any wish list items?
Ryan: I use 'em all the time.
tee: I use them all the time!
jb: g, that page, there's some really wack HTML in there. But I'm on 4.08/Linux too, and don't see any HTML that should muck it up that seriously.
deeknow: what field type do U store 'em in ?
gerald: So what frustrates you the most about the archives?
Ryan: I don't know... just get the fulltext search working, and make it searchable by more fields.
gerald: More fields is just a matter of adding them to a config file; what kind of fields?
Ryan: The way messages I've seen before don't stay visited if I do a different search and they appear.
jb: g, I'd use the archives every -day- if they worked that often. [GDR!!]
Ryan: I think all headers should be searchable.
gerald: visited links: yeah, I hate that too. I think I might use real cookies in the next version.
Ryan: I really like the RegExps feature!
Ryan: It helps a *LOT*.
tee: Gerald, are you going to do an XML validator?
Ryan: There already are some around.
jb: Much easier to answer a question with an URL, -AND- encourages people to use the silly thing.
gerald: I've been meaning to do that for a while...
Ryan: Microsoft has some kind of Active-X control that checks well-formedness.
tee: In IE 5?
Ryan: Are you ever going to incorporate user-defined DTDs in to the validator?
Ryan: It seems like a pretty easy thing to do, from how the source code looks now.
hubick: <PLUG>I have an xml analyzer:</PLUG>
gerald: user-defined DTDs: you can already do that; just put the DTD on the Web somewhere, and give the URI for it in the doctype. I should write some docs on that.
Ryan: I tried it. It doesn't work.
gerald: Oops. It used to.
Ryan: I think it's because of the FPI, right?
gerald: I moved the service recently due to a disk crash, maybe I need to recompile the SGML parser on the new machine with -DHAVE_SOCKET defined.
Ryan: What about counting the actual number of error messages returned for easy reference?
gerald: yeah, I should do that.
hubick: gerald: I really want recursive validation!
gerald: I was working on it just before this meeting, actually; my development version is at
gerald: recursive: started in that direction today. Probably won't finish it today, though.
Ryan: What do you mean "recursive?"
hubick: I want it to check my whole site...just supplying the URL for the main page
gerald: Of course, the source is available ( ), so if you want to hack it up yourself and send me the patches, I won't mind. :)
hubick: hahaha
hubick: Perl?
gerald: yeah, sorry.
deeknow: What's your involvement with W3C Gerald?
gerald: I work there as a sysadmin. (I'm there now... almost 11pm :( )
deeknow: Nice one !
gerald: (boring)
Ryan: hubick: this might help you:$bfcfe7c0$
gerald: I'm pretty sure the validator will handle 'n' URLs within the next week or so. (using a multi-line textarea). I'm not sure when I'll get the real recursive thing done though.
tee: I have a question. I'm using Win 95 and if I click on a link here, is another window opened? I'm using IE5.
hubick: you would have to restrict recursive processing to not use CGI, and to not leave the host machine
hubick: Ryan: cool, thanks!
Ryan: I've been trying to write a routine in Perl that would go through all the dirs from a starting point, with no luck.
gerald: not leave the host: yeah, or maybe prompt for a few hosts that are okay or something.
Ryan: You're welcome, hubick!
katsmith: This has been interesting, but y'all are like, highly beyond me! Thanks, and G-nite!
gerald: tee: I right-clicked using Netscape on Linux, and it spawned another window.
Ryan: I've written recursive functions before, but I always get stuck with something like this.
jb: Ryan, isn't there a File:: module that does that? Why're ya reinventing the wheel?
Ryan: I don't know. I have this bad habit of trying to write routines for things that already exist. I wrote a even wrap_text routine that works well!
gerald: There are indeed some excellent Perl libs for this stuff; unfortunately I need to rewrite most of the current code to really take advantage of them.
gerald: A co-worker wrote a link checker in about 20 lines of Perl. I hope to add that to the validator soon, too.
Ryan: Doesn't something like that use LWP or something?
gerald: Yup.
tee: Sorry to get in the way of your conversation here, just a note. IE5 doesn't do anything with the links, left or right click. Ah well.
hubick: I think I might write a Java JNI wrapper for SP
Ryan: Yeah, I guess I need to look in to those modules...
Ryan: Got ActivePerl, but can't get it to work with PWS. At least the docs are good.
deeknow: Anyone writing ASP's under IIS or R U all Perl/CGI/*nix bods?
Ryan: I dabble in ASP... but not much... just started.
jb: Oh boy Ryan! Pick a topic and you'll find a module. :)
hubick: ASP...blech...Java servlets all the way! Yah Jigsaw!
Ryan: Yeah, I got the Camel book. Got the docs on a lot of 'em.
deeknow: How does it compare performance wise, for an equivalent in say PERL?
Ryan: ASP is FAST!
hubick: fast until NT crashes
gerald: PHP is probably more comparable to ASP tham Perl; PHP is also extremely fast.
Ryan: Perl is an awesome language. ASP is a very useful paradigm. You can't compare the two.
deeknow: Waddya reckon about scripting language under ASP, PerlScript, JScript, VBScript?
Ryan: But I found it extremely easy to write small apps in ASP/VBScript/JScript that would take a loooong time to write in CGI/Perl.
Ryan: I *love* JavaScript. That's why, at first, I didn't like ASP. ('cause I *LOVE* Perl, too.)
Ryan: It definitely takes time getting used to.
Ryan: JavaScript allows you to abbreviate many things, as does Perl(Script).
Ryan: That's why at first I didn't like VBScript for ASP. You get used to it, though.
deeknow: Most of the stuff Ive written for IIS so far has been with VBScript but I'm thinkin I outta switch to JScript?
Ryan: I don't know. the thing about ASP, as I was told by a guy who's helping me learn, is that ASP was meant to be written in VBScript, but to each his own.
Ryan: I really hate how there isn't any OOP of any sort in VBScript. That's one of the things I like about JS.
tee: Good night all, been great Canucks are losing again.....
Ryan: The ability to make your own objects, etc.
deeknow: JScript has fewer error trapping/handling features I hear
jb: 'Speed of coding' is directly proportional to experience and libraries. I used to be able to write huge programs fast on the C=64 because I had a huge set of disk library stuff. Later I could code fast in TP because of a lot of code I reused. Perl is fast after you learn how to use the modules.
gerald: Perl is fast even without the modules, but way faster with them, I suppose.
Ryan: I've found Perl is fast regardless... that is, unless, sometimes, when you do a lot of file stuff.
gerald: I learned enough Perl to do what I wanted in a couple days, about 5 years ago, and haven't learned much more since then. :/
Ryan: The thing that gets me most about Perl is some of the file manipulation, etc.
gerald: Most of my code would work fine with a perl4 interpreter (not by design, just because I don't know much perl5.)
hubick: Now that Im using XML for everything file related...I can use Java and Parsers for everything..and I am using Perl less and less.
Ryan: I came to Perl after 5 was introduced. It seems that Perl 4 is much more restricting because my Perl 5 scripts won't parse on a Perl 4 interpreter.
deeknow: Have U tried any PerlScript on NT Gerald? it fully functional Perl in another environment?
jb: But Ryan you just mentioned 'writing a program faster in [whatever else] than Perl. I didn't mean runtime fast, I meant coding fast.
Ryan: You can even use JScript for XML, which is nice on the client-side.
gerald: I don't use NT, sorry...
gerald: From what I've heard, Perl is fairly functional on NT.
Ryan: Oh yeah... well... it all depends on the program, I think. Like I said, I was surprised how fast I got a simple working with ASP.
hubick: I think Unicode will be a good addition to Perl. Does JS have support?
deeknow: Just some file system differences I guess
gerald: Perl is good when you don't really care about execution time. And most of the time, I don't. I don't have a lot of stuff that runs more frequently than, say, 10 times per second. The algorithm makes a lot more difference than the language, IMHO. Perl gives you the ability to concentrate on the algorithm.
jb: Perl does great file manipulation because that's what it was originally meant for. 'In the beginning' there was SED. They fed it a lot of sugar and there was AWK. They shot it up with steroids and here's Perl. :)
gerald: I see some people doing horribly awkward things in C when execution time doesn't matter at *all*. It makes me wince.
hubick: gerald: Are you talkin to me? :-))
gerald: oops, my Netscape crashed.
deeknow: Any1 know what the US/Others ratio is in HWG membership?
hubick: gerald: awkward things in C? Are you talkin to me? :-))
gerald: Netscape is the only piece of software that ever gives me grief these days. I'm really looking forward to 5.0.
jb: Gerald, what eshare interface are you using?
gerald: Java Lite [tm]
Ryan: IE5b2 is really decent, but I tend to use NN3.04 when I get sick of the bloat.
gerald: But I had about 30 windows open. (other stuff)
hubick: I tend to use lynx when I get sick of the bloat
gerald: US/others ratio: don't know for sure; I'd guess about 60-70% US
gerald: Next time I'll use a regular IRC client; I thought people would be using lots of graphics and stuff on here.
jb: All the Lite gave me was a blank black screen. All that works for me is HTML. YUCK! "Gimme da IRC!" :)
hubick: how do we use IRC??? what net/channel?
Ryan: The JavaLite chat works fine for me.
deeknow: too
gerald: The other day my NS at home was up to 200M (process size). Fortunately I had 256M of swap.
Ryan: There's instructions for the Guild's channel on the site, but it's different for Interact.
jb: IRC is supposed to work with eshare, but I haven't tried it.
Ryan: I think I used it once for one of the first Interact meetings, but it's been so long, I forget how.
gerald: I've used IRC with Eshare before, but I forget how. I'll try to find it.
deeknow: Is eShare a feebee for HWG, or is there some usage fee?
Ryan: Will this log be available? Last I checked, the Nov98 log wasn't posted.
gerald: I expect the log will be available, yes.
hubick: why bother, it's not like we have discussed anything important :-)
gerald: The HWG had to pay for eShare.
Ryan: Who says Perl isn't important?! smiley
hubick: I have a question...
deeknow: Is it IMPORTANT Hubick?
hubick: As someone who knows a lot about HTML/XML/CSS/etc...what does HWG offer me?
gerald: I can't believe I didn't put that IRC info anywhere useful. Duh.
hubick: other than a chance to give to others :-)
gerald: hubick: you could be a course instructor, maybe. Or a mentor.
hubick: I don't have time to teach, I get paid lots to teach Java now anyhow.
gerald: Or you can just correct people on the mailing lists and feel superior.
hubick: hahaha! lol...ok
hubick: gerald: competing with you for hits on ugweb helped get me hooked, and to where I am today :-)
gerald: Actually, I learned a *lot* about HTML from participating in HWG lists, and pretending I knew everything (and spending lots of time researching things whenever I got into a flamewar)
gerald: competing: when did you ever compete with me!? :-)
hubick: hahaha...I was ahead of you for two weeks, two weeks I will hold onto forever :-) hahaa
gerald: I'm still #1 on that server, even though I'm redirecting everything elsewhere. :-)
Ryan: That's how I learned almost everything I know, too. Taught myself, and listened and read a lot on the lists.
jb: What's an 'ugweb'?
hubick: I havent had a page there in 5 years and I still get hundreds a day!
gerald: ugweb == undergraduate web server
hubick: Gerald, Dave Stuart, and I used to compete for "hits" on the server during university by writing web games/entertainment
gerald: was a cool hack. I really liked that one...
Ryan: I've always wondered something: do you use the DirectoryIndex directive to have a directory execute a script, Gerald?
gerald: ("compete" used loosely)
gerald: Ryan: yup (well, that's one way)
Ryan: Like in or
gerald: yes, that's how I did it (an index.cgi)
Ryan: Thought so.
gerald: It's kind of strange, I probably wouldn't recommend that in general unless the index page really is dynamic. (it isn't, for the validation service.)
deeknow: Gotta go, social club beer fridge beckons....might C yaz next month.
gerald: I was just too lazy to maintain stuff like the common footer in more than one place.
hubick: gn deeknow
gerald: see ya
Ryan: Yeah, I was experimenting with a dynamic index page for a while... was kinda slow, though.
gerald: I recently changed to be a static document.
gerald: Makes it more cacheable, as well.
hubick: How many hits does the validator get?
hubick: do a _lot_ of people use it?
Ryan: Funny, though -- yesterday I chmodded my .htaccess and .htpasswd files in a dir to 600 and I could still read them. Don't know why.
gerald: Currently, .827 requests/sec. Most of them are image requests from people who have linked directly to the image.
hubick: how many people validate?
jb: Linked to the -image-! Yuck!!
hubick: Yuck is right!
Ryan: You mean used it in IMG SRC, right?
gerald: yeah.
gerald: It's probably my fault; I kind of encourage it on the validator results page.
gerald: I kind of have this theory that if everyone does that, then the image will be cached and if you visit more than one site with HTML 4.0 icons, you won't have to download them again.
gerald: But I can't decide if that makes sense or not.
hubick: hahahhahahahaha
Ryan: It's a good theory...
hubick: yeah, if anyone actually used it!
Ryan: But I just downloaded the icon myself.
hubick: I rarely see pages with a %
gerald: For, e.g., it would be a lot faster to have the icon server from instead of, because then people accessing the home page don't need to wait for the extra DNS lookup.
gerald: rarely: yeah, but it's getting more and more common :)
hubick: don't they let you put it on there?
gerald: what do you mean?
hubick: the image, on
hubick: on
gerald: yeah, actually once a guy asked me to change the home page to avoid the DNS lookup delay, but I was sticking to my theory. :)
gerald: Also, if everyone embeds the image directly, sometime in the future I can do sneaky things like: if the referring page is invalid, return an ugly "this person is a liar!" image instead of the checkmark.
hubick: People should put it on their own server, then you really save a lookup, and possibly from having to download something from around the world
gerald: yeah, but what if they already have it cached?
Ryan: That's only if you use something like fly and do a vh40.cgi or something...
gerald: I can return something dynamic even if they link to vh40.gif
gerald: Apache lets you do whatever you want. :)
hubick: I only display it once, for my whole site
Ryan: WOW! Never heard that before.
Ryan: Would you use like a Redirect directive?
hubick: no, just tell it the file is an executable
gerald: W3C makes extensive use of content negotiation on our site, so if we have e.g. vh40.gif, vh40.png, vh40.jpg, Apache serves the optimal one given the client requests
Ryan: Oh, you mean make .gif executable for that dir?
hubick: yeah
gerald: Similarly for language negotiation; if someone has their browser set to prefer Japanese, then English, then French, our servers will serve the right document to them if there are multiple versions (as there are of press releases)
Ryan: And then have it be a script instead of a graphic?
hubick: ryan : yeah
Ryan: OK.
hubick: hmmm....welll, now that I have spend all my free time on this thing...Its getting near time to go
jb: Yeah, me too, dinner time. See y'All on the lists. Have a :) day! bfn
gerald: me too, I guess. Gotta play with my new scanner.
hubick: gerald: it's nice talkin to yeah, perhaps Ill fire you off another email you can ignore in another 5 years :-)
gerald: yeah, yeah... sorry man. I was going to reply, really!
Ryan: Bye, all! smiley
hubick: Im the same way, dont worry...heheh
jb: Stoopid POS with fixed frame sizes, can't get to the 'quit' or whatever button. :)
gerald: Lately (last 6 months) I've been getting better about answering email from friends
hubick: kk
hubick: later
gerald: bye

End of meeting.

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