HTML Writers Guild Guild Operations Events 990624 Meeting

Town Hall Meeting - 24 July 1999

(What follows is a log of the meeting, automatically generated by the eShare software.)

Kynn Just had to make sure that my logging was working correctly. It is _now_.
Teresa So what is going on here?
Carole Good!
Carole Getting ready to have an official meeting!
Teresa I have chronic tabitis!!!! It is left over from ICQ
Carole LOL
Kynn Tabitis?
FredGB I have ICQ, but I haven't caught that bug yet.
Teresa TAB/ENTER!!!
Teresa If you don't have ICQ, you wouldn't know
Carole By the Way, got the other code, thanks, Teresa. :)
Kynn I have ICQ, I don't have a tab enter thing though :)
Kynn Fred, you're the host, whenever you feel like starting and giving an official welcome, be my guest. :)
Kynn my host?
Carole LOL
FredGB Okiely Dokiely.
FredGB I want to welcome everyone, especially our first time visitors...
FredGB We hold these meetings each month so the members can come and meet the GB (those who attend)...
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Carole Welcome Rich
Rich Hi
FredGB and can ask questions about what's going on with the Guild, maybe sound off on issues, or just chew the fat.
FredGB Hi Rich.
Rich Hi, Fred
Carole No adgenda tonite?
FredGB None that I'm aware of. I'm a very informal host.
marlini has anyone ever taken an online course from the guild?
Carole YES!!!
FredGB That's why I don't do this very often.
Teresa Yes...but had to much going on, to get much out ofit...will next time though!
Kynn Open agenda, the meetings are for the members, not for the GB to dictate what we talk about. :) We get LOTS of time to run the show!
FredGB :-)
marlini Was it good? did you learn a lot?
Rich I taught one ...
Kynn Me too, Rich!
Rich I thought it was good, and I learned a lot.
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marlini very cool, which one?
Kynn Welcome AlexG!
Carole Is this the Rich from Perl?
Rich Yep
FredGB Welcome AlexG.
Kynn My wife took Rich's class, she learned a lot! Which is good because now I don't have to do all the Perl scripting anymore!
Carole I'm still catching up. :) Did you get my Email?
Rich Yes, I did.
marlini ic
Carole Classes are mostly really quite good.
Kynn If anyone wants to give a critical review of the classes and say that mine sucks or something, feel free, I'll pretend I'm not here. :)
Teresa I wouldn't know
Rich It's difficult to tell how people are doing in class - I taught college algebra for several years, and it is good to see faces.
FredGB Why "mostly" Carole? Did you have a bad class experience?
Carole Critical Review of KYNN, Universal Accessibility, Well, if you wanna get addicted, take his class. :)
marlini i will probably try one sometime in the future
Carole Yes, Fred. Sad to say, Ann's class DHTML was no class at all, just assignments and
Kynn Carole, my sig currently says "catch the web accessibility meme!", I think it's like a disease, once you understand the web you want to pass it on
Carole atta-boys, no instruction whatsoever. Could have gotten more from the book alone.
Carole Yeah, Kynn, it's a great disease, and you have much to do with it!!!
FredGB I see.
Kynn Well, we each have different approaches, I've heard some good things about Ann's class too. That's one neat thing, the instructor's personalities come through -- each of us has a different approach.
AlexG Hmmm, I'm in one of Ann's classes now! I hope it's better.
Kynn And not every approach works for everyone. Carole, of course, is kissing up to me. :)
marlini looks like I opened a can of worms here......heheheh
Kynn I highly recommend Marshall Jansen's class if you want to learn Javascript. He's both a friend of mine and a dedicated teacher.
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Carole Unfortunately, many students have been sending email to me complaining about many of her classes, so don't know what to say. You might check the Futures forum regarding some of their criticisms.
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Teresa seemed pretty interesting, reading the posting and the classes
Kynn I'll do that, I haven't had time lately, I wonder if they're criticizing me. :)
Carole I recommend Marshall's class too. Wish he'd get a JavaScript II class going. I intend to be his first student! No, Kynn, your name was not mentioned. :)
Carole RE classes, Rich, you should get a PERL II class going as well, much interest in it, as well.
Kynn Advanced classes are always so much harder to pull off right -- the right balance of "advanced" is _really_ hard to do!
Rich What would be covered in a Perl II class, in your opinion.
marlini is perl difficult to learn if you don't have a programming background?
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Carole Hhrumph, I have some thoughts on that!
Kynn Rich, BTW, did you get my email about books? I didn't hear a response.
Rich I got the email. I've been a little busy, but I do want to do that.
Carole More complexity, detail, expansion on Regular Expressions, etc.
Kynn Okay, believe me, I understand about being busy!
Carole LOL
Dizzy I don't think it's too hard marlini, that's the first kind of "programming" I started learning about a year ago.
marlini oh good, i only know html now
Kynn Marlini, I don't have a good answer because I have a programming background myself.
marlini i c
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Carole It's pretty straight forward, and Rich is truly the "genius" others have told me he is. :)
Rich Wow.
Kynn So when I learned Perl it was easy for me, because Perl is a very good "second language", but that doesn't mean it's a bad "first" either.
marlini good carole, i will give it a try soon
Kynn Notice how Carole is praising everyone who's here! I told you she sucks up! :)
marlini awww c'mon, maybe she's just being nice :-)
Carole OK Kynn, You're in SERIOUS trouble now!!! That was supposed to be a secret!
Rich I'd like to think that she's being brutally honest!
Rich :-)
Kynn Heh. Maybe I'll edit the logs though just in case Ann reads 'em. :)
Carole I try.
marlini lol ( rich's head is now too big for the room):-))
Kynn To answer the previous question about the logs, I need to hunt them down (they're on my hard drive) and post the transcripts of previous town hall meetings.
Carole Don't you DARE. I think she knows my feelings.
Kynn By the way, has anyone noticed that I reorganized the links on the HWG homepage recently?
Carole Yes, the HWG pages are sorely out of date. Who, other than you maintains them?
Rich Dozens of people.
Carole Yup!
Kynn Depends on the page in question, Carole.
Carole I also noticed that they are HTML 4.0 now, too.
Dizzy I don't know about out of date, I found this meeting, so it can't be too old!
Carole I could help, Kynn. :)
Kynn List pages are maintained by the list guides; resources by the resources team; AWARE site by me; classes pages by the classes management, etc.
FredGB Yeah Dizzy, but before the update, we still had the March meeting listed on
Kynn Good point, Fred. I decided that the best thing to do regarding that was to take out the date reference entirely!
Kynn One less thing to have to maintain each month. :)
FredGB Course we ended up not having an April meeting anyway, due to server trouble.
Kynn I think it was a May meeting we didn't have -- it's June today, Fred!
marlini i must go now, maybe we'll talk again next time, nice to meet you all. bye
Carole A suggestion, not original, but one that crossed my mind some time ago, and someone else voiced recently. We need to post the class schedules for several months out as it makes it difficult for planning. That's how I ended up taking 3 classes at the same time. I was afraid I'd have to wait a year.
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Dizzy bye marlini
FredGB Calendar watcher!
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Carole It was the May meeting that died. I was at the April meeting. :)
HWGmember back
Kynn Yep, good point, Carole! In faaaaaact...
Kynn The newsletter that's going out this weekend says "due to popular demand, we are now scheduling classes further in advance!"
Kynn If you look at you'll see courses scheduled until the end of the year and beyond!
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FredGB So now you can start saving your pennies.
Kynn The reason we hadn't done this before is because of a limitation in the signup code -- originally it was set so you could only have one session of a given course (e.g. D201) "enrollable" at a time.
FredGB :-)
Carole Hurray for us. That will definitely improve our student registration and maybe reduce the size of classes if they know when the next class will be available.
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Rich Ack
Kynn We got our programmer to change this so that now we can schedule and sign up for classes further in advance, and it also helps students plot out their "study course"
Rich Ack
Kynn Bad net, Rich?
Dizzy hair ball, Rich?
FredGB Maybe the java is acting up, since Teresa keeps getting bumped?
Carole I still want to teach the Designing class. I *do* have a degree from a prestigious Art School (Art Institute).
HWGmember NO,
FredGB I'm on IRC.
HWGmember Teresa keeps getting booted, because she hits TAB and then ENTER!!!
HWGmember and I am here to tell you that is NOT the thing to do!
FredGB Oh yeah, ICQ thingie. :-)
Kynn Oh, hi Teresa!
HWGmember yep!
Kynn You didn't change your name from the default so I didn't recognize you :)
Carole I'm not getting booted. Must be a *User* thingie. :)
HWGmember bad habit of using the tab key all the time
Rich Not sure what happened there.
Dizzy where do you "tab" in icq? the direct chat part? (I don't use that much)
HWGmember with everything!!! instead of using the cursor to enter, i just hit tab to get to the enter key and then hit return...which is fine, except in Java chat!
FredGB Returning to classes for the moment, are there any we don't offer that you'd like us to?
Carole Careful with the TAB key, Teresa.
Kynn I think Teresa is saying that when she's typing stuff in the input box, she moves to the next control with TAB, which takes her to the 'send' button, and then hits return. Rather than using a mouse to click on send.
HWGmember yep!!!
Kynn If she does that here, the 'next control' on the Java applet (on is the "CLOSE" button!
HWGmember I know!!! but old habits die hard
FredGB You know you can just hit enter. That's what I used to do.
HWGmember I don't know...I really liked the java script and I would like to learn perl as well, but need more hours in the day
Dizzy oooh, i get it.
Carole I think we should have a very basic class in terminology so that people will have those understood before taking any specific classes.
Kynn I'll tell Marshall that you all love him. :)
Carole WE DO!
FredGB Who Marshall?
HWGmember Are there different levels of html classes??
Carole And if anyone can get us a 36 hour day, I'd be your slave forever.
HWGmember for sure!
Kynn Carole, I was thinking of that, maybe a free 2 week 'intro to the HWG classes' classes, maybe $5 for the intro class just so we can hire someone to teach it :)
Carole No, but there otta be.
Carole Me, Kynn, Me. :)
Carole I do love teaching soooo.
HWGmember because I am pretty good at basic HTML, but would like to be more comfortable with forms....I always have to cut and paste code...because I can never remember it
Kynn It depends on what you mean by different levels. There are some classes that require more knowledge -- for example, I don't teach basic web design in D201.
Kynn The DHTML class assumes you know something about HTML, CSS, and Javascript; the CSS class assumes you know basic web design; etc.
HWGmember oh, ok...
HWGmember i will have to check out CSS
HWGmember i understand very little about it
FredGB I'm just learning CSS myself.
Carole The forms things, etc would be a great "advanced class"
HWGmember yes....uses for forms, and different methods and design aspects
Kynn One thing we want to do in the future is "advanced classes" -- it's also been waiting on the programming.
Kynn Right now the current sign-up scripts only allow for one "price" for all classes. This is limiting on the "advanced" classes.
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Kynn Because theoretically there would be fewer people taking an "advanced" class than an "intro" class, it's how things work.
HWGmember I have a hard time understanding that...seems there would be fewer beginners in an organization like this...
Kynn So to still be profitable for the Guild and the teacher to actually run the class, we would need somewhat higher rates for the classes with fewer people in them
Carole1 I got kicked out! Now I am two.
Kynn Actually, Teresa, because the Guild is an educational organization, we get a LOT of people who are at the beginner stage.
Dizzy My friend that told me about the Guild pointed out to the stuff you say about being for maybe more beginners feel comfortable here.
HWGmember oh...
FredGB You've been cloned Carole. :-)
Kynn Or maybe not "beginner", but they're looking to learn new skills.
Kynn Such as learning CSS, Perl, ASP, XML, Javascript, or whatever.
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FredGB I didn't know anything when I joined.
Kynn And Fred STILL doesn't know anything!
Carole1 That beginner thing is how I joined, too. The Mentor program interested me, but never got a response. :(
Kynn *hides*
HWGmember Which mentor program?
FredGB No need to hide Kynn. In a way, you're right. :-)
Carole1 The one that just got killed!!!
FredGB It wasn't killed, it died from lack of interest.
Carole1 Hmmm, so nobody answered my request 4 years ago and it just got killed?
Kynn Basically the mentor program had a lot of conceptual problems -- especially since the HWG couldn't guarantee a quality mentor for each person who wanted one!
Kynn Four years ago? I think it was Darren who is no longer a GBer and hasn't been one for years who was running the mentor program then. :)
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Kynn Uh oh! Teresa hit TAB!
Carole1 Well, now that everyone is getting so savvy, we should reinvestigate the program?
HWGmember you are right, about that!!
HWGmember oops
Carole1 Are you saying he
FredGB We still have the same problems Carole.
Kynn Not really, Carole. If you want I can go into more of the reasons for it; basically there's a big gulf of misunderstanding about what the program was supposed to be.
Carole1 's a quitter, sorry I hit the return key. :)
Kynn In fact I'm not even sure it's practical as we understand a "mentor" program without a HUGE investment of work and even then the investiture of resources are hard to justify.
Carole1 Well, my thoughts are these. Now that we are beginning to acquire more knowledgeable members, we could rethink the program in terms of the different aspects, like JS mentors, Perl mentors, CSS mentors, etc
Kynn That's the chief thing that the Governing Board has to look at -- is this program the best way to serve this need using the Guild's limited resources (people, time, money)? In this case, the mentor program wasn't meeting the needs and wasn't worth the efforts.
Kynn Okay, so we've grouped people. Now what? What do we expect of the mentors? Free, unlimited consulting to their apprentices? That's what some (most?) apprentices have expected.
Carole1 One thing that I like that seems to be working is the number of specialized digests.
FredGB You mean the mailing list digest?
Carole1 No, Kynn, we get the apprentices through steps of knowledge then turn them into mentors.
FredGB That was a requirement under the old program. Apprentices were expected to become mentors afterwards.
Carole1 Yes, Fred. I have joined most of them and find many questions answered that I, too, was going to ask, or discovered later were useful. I save them all.
Kynn What if someone wants to be an apprentice but they have no interest in being a mentor?
FredGB But from what I understand, few if any were doing that.
Kynn How does someone go from being an apprentice to being a mentor? Who determines when they have "passed the mark"?
Kynn I'm not asking you to answer all these questions as much as I'm pointing out the factors that led the GB to decide it wasn't a viable program.
FredGB All that, and a basic shortage of mentors too.
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Kynn Well there goes our good explanation. :)
Kynn Yeah, even beyond the "questions", there was just a lack of people who wanted to be mentors.
Kynn So, Dizzy, what about you, do you have any questions about the Guild and the way things work?
HWGmember a lot of us that know HTML, have a LOT of projects going on!
Kynn Exactly, Teresa! Which is why the mentor program didn't work, I think.
HWGmember we are still a far
Dizzy I'm mostly trying to soak it all up. Still figuring out what all is available to me
Kynn I'll bet it makes you...dizzy
FredGB Now you should hide. :-)
Kynn Sorry!
HWGmember brb
Kynn So, uh, Rich, how's things?
Rich Uh ... still here.
Rich On the phone ... sorry.
Dizzy cute Kynn :)
Dizzy Old nickname -- Deserie -- "Dizzy"
Kynn I'm cute?
Kynn Ask Fred, he's met me and will probably disagree :)
Dizzy I don't know, are you? :)
Rich Grading homework madly, and talking on the phone.
Kynn That's okay, Rich! You're a busy fellow!
FredGB Dizzy meant your "attempt" at humor.
FredGB And no, Kynn isn't cute, not even in a Gay sorta way. :-)
Kynn Liz thinks I'm cute!!
Dizzy oh, well, hrm :)
FredGB And some people think spiders make cute pets. :-)
Kynn Ew spiders
Kynn Anyone ever notice that a lot of female members come to these meetings?
Dizzy I think women are more "chat about things" people
FredGB Women are more interested in learning, and interacting. Guys could care less how HWG is doing, or why.
HWGmember nope...this is my first time
FredGB I did notice the rest of the GB is AWOL. (And I hope you leave this in the log.)
Dizzy are they supposed to be here?
FredGB It's not required.
FredGB But most of them used to come.
HWGmember how can people become more involved...My friend told me about mailing lists, but haven't seen any....don't want a HUGE one, but would like to learn more
FredGB You haven't seen our mailing list page?
HWGmember No
Dizzy i saw it! There's a link on the main page
HWGmember ok...I might have been in a hurry, the last time I was there...let me go look
Kynn Leanne told me that she couldn't make it tonight because of work stuff. I don't know WHERE Ann is, and Joe is usually busy at this time of night.
HWGmember what is an assistive web tech??
Kynn Follow the link and find out! Or I can just tell you.
Kynn It's technology (such as browsers or input/output devices) used by disabled people to access information on the web.
HWGmember oh, ok
FredGB If you don't want a busy list, I would advise not subscribing to "-basics"
Dizzy I'm on the digest of that list, that makes it a bit easier.
FredGB Yeah, I forgot the digests.
HWGmember Ok...yeah, I have found digests to be better, but if you are in a graphics list, it isn't good
Rich I'm much less likely to actually read stuff in digest form.
FredGB I'm subbed to almost all the lists.
Dizzy wow, you must get alot of mail!
FredGB I get about 200 messages per day.
HWGmember that is way too much!!! I have a lot of obligations and can't spend that much time reading email!!
Dizzy use the digests then, HWGmember -- I get just 1 or 2 a day. THey're long, but I can read them in pieces.
FredGB But I don't read'em all. I look for subjects with interesting items. Otherwise I delete them unread.
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FredGB Hello Chris.
Chris Hi Fred
HWGmember gotta go now, work to do!
Dizzy bye!
FredGB Bye Teresa.
Chris About to ask if I was late or early - guess that answers it!
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FredGB So, anything else on anyone's mind?
Kynn Chris Higgs?
Dizzy Time for me to go too...nice to meet everyone
FredGB Goodbye Dizzy.
Kynn Bye Dizzy!
Kynn Well I guess this meeting is over, Fred, what do you think?
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FredGB Looks like, since just staff is here (assuming that is Chris Higgs).
FredGB I count Rich as staff since he's a teacher.
Rich Thanks.
Rich Sorry for just lurking.
Rich Not much to say.
Kynn Are you a list guide still, Rich?
Rich Yes, I am.
Rich -Servers
FredGB Oh, a double dipper.
Kynn Oh yeah! I need to get with Aaron to move that.
Rich Move it where?
Chris Yep - CH! Just darted outside to get some lunch.
FredGB Got a shrimp on the barbie?
FredGB Or is it that wimp Ken. :-)
Chris Nah - no time for that at present - besides, it's too cold outside!!
Chris I hate having to scrape ice off the car!
FredGB Move to Alice Springs. :-)
Chris That would be nice and warm, but no beach :(
FredGB Actually, too much beach, not enough water. :-)
Chris I think it's going to rain soon
FredGB Rained here today.
Rich Rained here too.
Chris Looks like a miserable day in general!! At least it's almost the weekend :P
Rich We needed it in a BAD way.
FredGB Well, I think I'm going to go. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I need to make it up tonight.
FredGB Later you all.
Rich OK, TTFN.
Chris If it's all over, then I'll sign off too!
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Chris Kynn - I'll contact Jeff shortly
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End of meeting.

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