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HTML Writers Guild

Guild Operations

Events

991028 Meeting

Town Hall Meeting - 28 October 1999

(What follows is a log of the meeting, automatically generated by the eShare software.)

Session Start: Thu Oct 28 17:48:35 1999 * Now talking in #townhall * frank has joined #townhall
frank	Hi, any one there or am I too early/late
*** FredGB has joined #townhall
FredGB	Darn! I'm not first again! :-)
Kynn	Hi Frank, hi Fred
Kynn	You're here, you're not late, you're a little early, Frank.
Kynn	It's possible that we might not have anyone show.
frank	Ah! Just sent out e-mail, ignore it!
frank	Hi fred
frank	Hi Kynn
FredGB	I almost didn't make it. I haven't been able to get to my comuputer until just now. So I'll be replying to some og the gb@ stuff later or tomorrow.
FredGB	og=of
frank	og=of, you been at the cooking brandy again?
FredGB	I don't cook, and I don't drink. :-)
FredGB	Now inhaling, that's something else! VBG
frank	Good on both counts, I have just joined weight watchers, and for now i don't drink either!
FredGB	I notice you say, "for now." :-)
Kynn	It's hard to imagine Frank permanently "not drinking" :)
Kynn	Wow, no members have come yet.
Kynn	I thought for sure if I idled a bit some more would appear.
*** HWGmember has joined #townhall
FredGB	Sometimes it takes a while.
FredGB	See.
frank	Hi HWGMember!
FredGB	Hello member.
Kynn	Hello! Welcome to the town hall meeting! Whoever you are :)
HWGmember	Hi all! I'm new at this so I'll just watch what happens. OK?
Kynn	Sure, that's fine. So far we don't have many members here today! I think everyone may be busy or something. Frank, Fred, and I are all on the Board of Directors for the Guild.
*** Chris has joined #townhall
frank	Well nothing much is happening so far as you are the only member, apart of course from Kynn, Fred, and myself
FredGB	Hi Chris.
Kynn	Hello, Chris!
Chris	G'Day Fred, Frank
HWGmember	I've been a member for about 2 years. I have taken 4 on-line courses and learned alot.
Chris	Hi Kynn - didn't see you there :)
Kynn	Have you taken any of mine?
*** Carole has joined #townhall
Kynn	Hi Carole!
HWGmember	Sorry, no.
FredGB	Hello Carole.
Kynn	I was getting worried when there were only 3 GBers here, but now the Usual Crowd is starting to show up. :)
Kynn	Try one of mine! They're decent. :)
Carole	Hi Kynn and everybody else. Sorry I was late. Working too hard.
Carole	Well, are we official yet? Or still gabbing?
Kynn	That's okay, Carole. We're still gabbing for a while, but then we could start officially and officially gabbing!
Kynn	I was wondering if any of you non-GB types have had a chance to look over the Guild's new three-year strategic plan.
Carole	KEWL!!!! :)
FredGB	Nothing is really "official" at these meetings anyway.
Kynn	Yeah, we are not sticklers on officiality -- this is time to let our hair down and chat with you members!
Carole	So Kynn, did you get my email re: the vacant GB job? I'm still interested, I think...
Carole	Of course I did. I read everything I can get my hot little paws onto!
Kynn	Your email about it, Carole?
Kynn	Did you send it to gb-search?
Kynn	What did you think about the strategic plan? So far nobody has offered comments, which always scares us but it usually means we're doing a decent job. :)
Carole	You didn't, I can tell. No, to you, I thought. Maybe I started it and never got it sent.
FredGB	I didn't see it today. Saw Chris's.
Kynn	I got something from...a friend in Japan?
HWGmember	Excure me - but I assume GB stands for Guild Board?
Kynn	Yeah, sorry, it stands for Governing Board
Kynn	Governing Board == Board of Directors
Carole	Oh, well. Yes, Doris, she's interested in Ann's position coming up in February.
Kynn	Frank, Fred, and I are all on the Board of Directors.
Carole	Yeah, the kahunas! Big Guys, bosses, etc.
Chris	The strategic plan looked very thorough - I don't know who the consultant was but they appear to have done a great job
HWGmember	Thank you
Kynn	Our consultant is great! She's worked with non-profits for quite some time now.
Carole	So who are you? HWG Member?
*** Rob has joined #townhall
FredGB	Hello Rob.
Carole	Hi Rob
HWGmember	The name ids Mike DeLucia.
Kynn	Hi Mike!
Kynn	Hello Rob, as well!
Rob	Hi All, nice to be here
Carole	I know the name. Hi Mike.
Kynn	Okay, let me be semi-official here for a while.
Kynn	Thank you everyone for coming to the monthly Town Hall Meetings. The purpose of these meetings is to give you, the members, a chance to speak with the "administration" of the Guild, which includes the board of directors (Governing Board) and key staff who choose to show up.
Kynn	Chris, here, for example is the head of the List Guide program.
Kynn	I'm the President, Frank is the Vice President of Special Events, and Fred is the Assistant Secretary -- we're all on the Governing Board (GB)
HWGmember	Hey! I just realized I could change my log-on name. How's this?
Carole	And a fine job he does, too!
Kynn	We typically have no "set agenda" and are instead open to whatever the members would like to discuss -- we on the Board have plenty of time to set agendas; this is _your_ time, not ours!
*** Khyri has joined #townhall
FredGB	Hi Khyri.
Khyri	Hi, Kynn, Carole, Chris, Frank, Fred and Rob
Carole	I want to send kudos to our forever busy Jobs-List manager. She's got one heck of a lot of mailing to do.
Kynn	Hello, Khyri, whoever you are!
Khyri	:P Kynn
Carole	Hi Khyri.:)
Kynn	Yeah, Judith does a great job, pass along our thanks to her, Chris!
FredGB	Ditto.
Carole	I do, as often as possible. I think she knows me by name, I just wanted you guys to know, too!
Chris	G'Day Khyri. Yep, Judi does a fantastic effort!
Rob	By way of intro, I've not been in one of these meetings before, so I'll likely just lurk for the most part.
Kynn	Of course, with no agenda, the burden is on _you_ to decide what we talk about. :) First I guess we could do some Q-and-A -- does anyone have any questions about how the Guild works?
*** Felan has joined #townhall
Carole	The same goes for the Style sheets list person. I've plowed the list a few times, not intentionally, though
Rob	Hope that's OK
FredGB	Hi Leanne.
HWGmember	I have one - how do you decide what courses to offer?
FredGB	No prob Rob.
Carole	Hi Leanne!
Carole	Yeah, I wanna know that too!!!
Felan	Yo, hi all.
Felan	How do we decide? We have a survey about what classes people would like to see, first off.
Kynn	Leanne! Hi! Everyone, this is Leanne Phillips, she is also on our board and is our Vice President of Member Education.
Chris	This conversation is going fast for a change - I'm going to have to concentrate exclusively on it :)
Kynn	So she is in an excellent position to talk to us about classes. :)
Felan	Then, it depends on what proposals we get from potential teachers.
Carole	Good. I do indeed want to talk about it. In fact, this may sound curt, but when do we change the Online Ed classes name to Ann's courses?
Felan	We have to review the proposal, the text etc etc.
Felan	Uh...? Huh, Carole?
Kynn	Huh? I'm not sure I understand your question, Carole?
Carole	Well, she is the instructor for 90% of the classes. I don't know how she can do all her jobs well with so much on her plate already.
Kynn	The Online Classes are overseen by a committee of three board members -- Leanne is the Chair of that committee, as VP of Education, and Frank (here) and Ann (not here) also serve on the committee.
Kynn	I guess we're just blessed with a good hard worker, Carole! :) Although she doesn't really teach 90% of the classes, only about probably 10% of them.
HWGmember	Well I only had her for 1 of my 4 classes. So there are other instructors.
Kynn	Considering we have about 10 active teachers... :)
Felan	She's certainly not 90%, I'm not sure where you come up with that from, Carole?
Carole	I'm still concerned because I get so much mail from other members since I TA the JS class. And most are not happy with her, so I get to be their mouthpiece. Such fun. :(
frank	We are trying to recruit more teachers! i teach ASP, XML, and a basic programming class
Kynn	Carole, I get a lot of email about Ann's teaching too, most of it saying that they really liked her class. That's what a lot of people in my classes who've had her before say also.
*** bob has joined #townhall
Rob	I did the JavaScript course, and I'm considering some others; but Ann's not doing any of them.
Kynn	Hello, bob! Welcome to the town hall meeting!
Felan	Hiya, bob!
Kynn	What did you think of the Javascript course, Rob?
Carole	I tried to volunteer for the Design class but Ann didn't like my qualifications even though my degree is from the Art Institute.
Khyri	Right now, I'm immersing myself in learning/practicing/getting expert in PHP with a view to possibly teaching that down the road. And I'm certainly not Ann!!!!
bob	Hello. I don't know what I am doing. But thanks for greeting me.
Chris	Mike - you originally asked "how do you decide which courses to run". I've just finished Frank's class on ASP and there was substantial opportunity to comment and suggest new courses at the end of it.
Carole	Hi Bob
FredGB	Hello Bob.
Rob	I thought it was good. I've actually posted some thoughts on it in the Guild Discussion area.
Chris	There is also a forum for feedback and suggestions on interact.hwg.org
Felan	You took the ASP class, Chris?
Felan	Geeze, I had no idea. :)
Rob	From a personal point of view, I also thought it was assessed too easily.
Felan	Which was, Rob? The work done in the course, or what?
Kynn	The grading was too easy, Rob? Interesting -- it's always hard to get the right mix on these things. I've had people tell me (about the Javascript class) that it was too hard, too!
Carole	I have no doubt about the ASP class. But I don't use ASP, so I was wondering if we could talk you into a class similar in nature, not based on ASP.
Kynn	Carole, how about a PHP class? I'm trying to talk Khyri into teaching it. :)
Felan	What sort of class are you looking for, Carole?
HWGmember	I just completed the PSP class and suggested a follow on class. What's chances there will be one.
frank	We could do with a php class
Carole	JS is a difficult class. But when finished they can write JS pretty well!
Rob	I'm concerned that a body such as this, which is aiming to improve industry standards, should itself set relatively high standards.
Kynn	For those who don't know, Khyri (Liz) is my wife. Nepotism at work! :) Actually anyone who is qualified can suggest a course and submit a proposal.
Chris	Hi Leanne, yes, tried the intro to ASP, then upgraded our server to cope with ASP and wiped out the PHP/CGI capability LOL
Chris	I've been furiously programming in ASP ever since!
frank	Thats weird, chris, i never heard of that before, did you get to the bottom of it
Felan	Whoops, Chris. :)
Felan	Carole? What did you mean by similar in nature?
Kynn	EEEK Chris
Carole	Well, re the PHP class, that would be great. I use it, but for the most part, I use CorelDraw Suite and have since V3. It's much more robust.
Chris	I've reinstalled ActivePerl, but not rebooted yet - it's our main server so I have to wait until the weekend so as not to disrupt anyone. I think the upgrade from IE2 to IE5 was too much :)
Kynn	That's a pretty big jump.
Carole	Well, didn't you tell me at the last meeting that you teach a "shopping cart" in that class? I could use some help with that.
Kynn	Liz, teach a PHP class. :)
Kynn	She's doing PHP shopping carts currently.
Kynn	I like bragging about my wife. :)
Carole	Leanne, That answer was to Frank, sorry, I didn't notice who asked the question.
Kynn	Anyway, someone -- Rob? -- asked about how we select which classes to teach.
Felan	That helps me a little. :)
Carole	Kynn, that's good. You should brag about here.
Felan	I talked a little about that - the survey, and the proposals.
Kynn	Right now it depends a lot on what proposals we get, who's willing to teach them, and the evaluation from the education committee.
Rob	Wasn't me who asked - but I'm interested to know
HWGmember	I think I started this!
Kynn	Although we are working on developing the framework for a "full line" of courses that cover everything in web design -- and we'll be doing some recruiting of teachers to fill those needs.
Carole	Talk about a fast paced discussion, tonite is really hot!!
Kynn	Yeah, I guess it was you...Mike, right?
Kynn	Your name is lost in scrollback. :)
Khyri	I'm writing my VERY FIRST shopping cart in between skipping back to this IRC window - hoping to get it a little further down the road towards working before it's time to go home....
HWGmember	I'm guilty
*** heath has joined #townhall
Khyri	...so it will be a while before I'm ready to teach it!
Kynn	Oh, okay, Liz. :)
FredGB	Hello Heath.
Kynn	Hello heath! We used to have a heath on our board once.
Khyri	Maybe this is the same HEath?
Carole	Hi heath
heath	Hi, all.
Kynn	So in short, right now proposals that fit into our gaps are evaluated by the edu committee, and those that are approved become classes.
Kynn	I feel like I'm in the "I'm just a bill" short from Schoolhouse Rock!
Carole	Kynn, did you look at my style sheet problem, perchance? NN even puts the map where I didn't tell it to put it!
frank	I'd like to ask a question about what Rob brought up, you feel the assesment is to simple, yet our drop out rate is abot 50%, my feeling is that if a student survives, they deserve recognition!
Kynn	Sorry if that cultural reference goes over anyone's head.
HWGmember	OK that about answers my question. Next!
Kynn	Hi, Carole, I didn't get a chance, sorry.
Felan	I'm still not sure we answered Carole's question about similar courses, but I'm not sure I understand which part of similar she wants.
Chris	I liked the way (at least in Frank's class) there were various levels of assignments
frank	Chis youve done a couple of classes, are mine tougher than the others?
Rob	Frank, if you check out my posting in the Discussion are, you'll see I did acknowledge that.that
Chris	Actually - that was my first
Kynn	I often get "dropout" in my classes of around 50% too -- most drop out not because it's too hard, but rather because they don't have the time.
Kynn	A lot of HWG members are really bad at time management, I think! :)
frank	OK I'll check it out!
Chris	brb - phone call
Carole	This is true about the dropout rate. We try to keep our student motivated by posting class standings, ie. only x classes to go, these people are on target. If you aren't on the list, let us know, etc.
Kynn	I'm guilty myself, I enrolled in Marshall's Javascript class and bailed after the first week. :)
frank	I've in real life, always taught graduate students, so I believe in pushing them
Rob	The JS course also had various levels of assignments, but it was only assessed on the simpler ones.
Kynn	I'm amazed at how many people have family crises just as they start taking the class! :)
Carole	He SHORE did. We decided you were auditing the class, Kynn.
heath	Having just survived 2 courses, it amy be the fact that the classes egt tougher as they go, and some students feel overwhelmed.
Kynn	Nah, I had to drop drop, Carole, I gave up after week one because I just don't have the time.
Rob	MAybe they have them all the time - you only notice when they tell you about it !
Kynn	Yeah, that could be it, heath. But Rob thought it was too easy! :) I think you're both right, by the way -- it's just very hard to get the right mix for everyone.
Khyri	I dropped out of Perl in about week 6 because of time, but also because I felt I'd got enough from it to learn the rest on my own....
Kynn	That could be it, Rob.
Carole	Wouldn't that be a nice thing. I think we should have some of those.
frank	Do people drop out because of time problems or because they don't get it?
heath	Depends on who you are & the mood you're in that week -- sometimes hard, sometimes easy
Carole	Mostly because of time, Frank.
Kynn	Mine drop out because of time, I don't know about your classes, Frank.
Rob	I didn't think the course was too easy - I thought that was about right - I thought the Assessment was too easy.
FredGB	Which course did you take Heath, just for reference?
Kynn	I teach pretty much "conceptual" stuff by choice, not "technique" stuff -- I much prefer the "theory" over the "practice" -- so my classes may not be as technical?
frank	Actually we should probably send a questioneer to people who drop out
Kynn	Oh, okay, the assessment, sorry -- I'm not sure I understand, then, Rob?
Kynn	Good point, frank!
Khyri	(. o O questionnaire O o .)
heath	Kynn's Web Management course, Ann's Dreamweaver. Kynn's course was a level more challenging than Dreamweaver.
Khyri	Am I turning into Josie Gellar? :)
Carole	I got a nice letter inviting me to retake the Perl class when I had to drop, one assignment short of completion. I accepted, so am now in round two, assignment three of that class.
HWGmember	Q. What's a "typical" class size?
Khyri	I may do that, Carole, if he lets me.
Rob	My point is that students' assignments should be assessed with some degree of rigour. People posted final JS assignmments that didn't work properly!
Felan	Kynn? You've dealt with the numbers of students more than I have.
Carole	Well, for JS we typically have 110 registered per class.
Rob	The JS one I did had about 110 to start, but only about 50 at the end.
HWGmember	Wow. Is 110 manageable for the instructor?
Carole	Rob, are you the Rob I know? I wasn't aware that assignments were getting through with errors. I'll remind Marshall. We're usually pretty tough.
*** bob has quit IRC (EOF From client.)
Rob	Yes, Carole, that's me. And they weren't straight errors, but things like forms breaking with unusual input.
Felan	I thought we were capping recently at 100 students?
*** Mdabrowsk has joined #townhall
Carole	Re 110 students, no this is not manageable for an instructor, which is why in the JS class we have a TA to help. I try to do most of the grading so that Marshall can focus on answering questions. Assignments "should" be tested before being posted, so that grading is pretty straightforward. If the errors are beyond my knowledge, then I let Marshall take over and point students in the right direction.
FredGB	Hi Mdabrowsk.
Mdabrowsk	Good evening, Fred.
HWGmember	A TA sounds like a good approach.
Carole	Ah, Rob, I see what you mean. The more recent classes don't have that situation. And for the calculator, we encourage them to make the "display" inaccessible so that the input keys only can be used.
Carole	Hi Mdabrowsk
Rob	From my experience, 100 is too many. I tried looking at other people assignments to see how I was doing in relation to them, and it was a lot af work. And that was without doing any assessment!
Carole	I think a TA is the best approach. Students can't do the assignments correctly if they can't get prompt answers from the instructor. By freeing his time for that purpose, the class actually gains from other peoples problems.
Chris	.I think one reason for the high drop-out rate is unrealistic expectations of the learner.
Chris	.Online classes naturally place a very high level of responsibility on the learner to be self-motivated. Perhaps this explains the high drop-out rate.
Felan	The TA idea was definitely a good idea to add in.
Carole	Rob, I try to grade as soon as assignments are posted, so that I don't have 100 to deal with at one time, only 10 or 12.
heath	Do you have completion goals for the classes?
Felan	We're experimenting with, for the more advanced classes that we're starting to develop, a lower cap on the number of students - we figure the instructor (and TA if there is one) will have enough work as it is with the lower number but more complex topic.
Rob	I think more feedback, rather than just "satisfactory", would be useful for many.
frank	For the special classes we are topping at 50, and doubling the price!
Rob	I found I was doing that on a number of occassions for other students; sometimes in the Questions or Discussions boards, sometimes by private email
HWGmember	Sorry all but I gotta run. This has been interesting. Thanks all.
frank	Well, feed back is only usually required if the student is "not" getting it
FredGB	Thanks for coming Mike.
Carole	We do. Though I'm sad to say that they got lowered. Don't know why, but originally Marshall required 4 assignments PLUS the final assignment, total of 5. Now, there are only 3 plus the final required. So many students are doing the "easy" stuff and ignoring the more difficult assignments, so they aren't gettting the most from the classes. I think that the beginning assignments should not necessarily count as much as do the more difficult
frank	We really rely on students to ask questions
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frank	in a 'live'class you can see from the expression on a students face if they are worried
Kynn	Sorry for idling there folks.
frank	we do not have that feedback in on;ine classes
Rob	True - and it seemed to me that many were getting the thing technically acceptable, but were missing the point.
heath	I can tell that my fellow students are worried when the speed of the assignment posts slows.
frank	True, but that always happens about week 3!
Carole	That, plus the number of people asking the same question. I try to let Marshall know that students are having a problem so he can post an additional "mini-lecture" to help them through that problem
heath	Yup -- that's when they realize the course won't be a snap.
Chris	.Carole - perhaps, in view of the new Introduction to Programming Concepts, the course could be redesigned to eliminate (or reduce emphasis on) the early assignments.
Felan	That's a possibility we may want to talk to Marshall about.
Kynn	Good idea, Chris!
Carole	That may well be a cure, Chris. And I'm glad to see that we are offering the Intro to programming concepts. Didn't we talk about trying to do a class like that, somewhere back in the eons of ago?
Kynn	I don't think it was that long ago. :)
Rob	I guess the question of pre-requisites comes into this.
Carole	Well, Kynn, Time flies. :)
Chris	.Pre-requisites as a guide, not necessarily mandatory
Carole	Who's teaching the Intro class?
Chris	.Frank said he was before
Carole	This conversation has been flying, too. Sorry, I missed that, Chris.
Kynn	Yeah, Frank and...someone else?
Felan	We're starting to design a set of classes that do flow from each other - the 'higher level' courses, 201s, 301s, etc.
Kynn	Oh, yes, that's right -- someone asked about 'advanced' classes.
Chris	.If the Intro is listed as a pre-requisite, it would deter absolute new programmers until they had a basic experience.
Carole	About a gazillion of us have been asking, Kynn!!! :)
Rob	I certainly wouldn't want them mandatory. But I think they could, perhaps, be emphasised more. And maybe the course descriptions should put more emphasis on them
Kynn	Advanced classes are a definite option. We're looking at having 'advanced classes' probably cost more to take, because there is less demand overall for them.
Carole	Half the students and double the price is worth every penny to anyone serious about the classes!
Kynn	Yeah, something like that makes sense, Carole.
heath	You're right, Carole.
Kynn	Part of it is that right now our teachers of the 'intro' classes tend to have their hands full with those classes!
Carole	somebody, I think, Frank said that number before I did. I was just agreeing. :)
Kynn	So we need to identify and train new up-and-coming teachers, possibly from the ranks of students, who wish to teach intro classes.
Chris	.How about a 1-week introduction to online learning class tacked onto the start of each course.
Kynn	That way the senior teachers can move up to more detailed classes
Kynn	Chris, have you been reading our minds?
Carole	I would like to take on the intro to JS class so Marshall can teach the JS II class!
Kynn	We're looking at a 2-week 'HWG Orientation class' that is run on a rotating basis by various teachers and TAs
Carole	I know other students who feel the same way, too.
Chris	.Actually - I was the note about Intro to Prog Concepts in the newsletter and thought you had been reading mine LOL
Felan	We've been...yeah, what Kynn said.
frank	Sorry been out of the room, helping my son with his home work!
Kynn	We're looking at the orientation class being free, even
Carole	Worth every cent of it, too, Kynn.
Kynn	It would cover basic stuff like 'how do i post' 'how do i find free space' 'how do i get help on this' 'how do i make simple pages' etc
Chris	.It would be good to get issues like "how to post code", etc out of the way first.
Kynn	I was amazed the first time I ran my Web Management class -- I didn't think I'd get people who didn't know how to make a hyperlink!
frank	Training of teacher: I have ifdentified two great teachers who took my class, one is taking over the Asp class, and the othwer is helping with another programming class
Kynn	Chris, want to help teach it? :)
Kynn	Excellent, Frank!
Chris	.Rick was GREAT!!!
frank	Yes, he's a professor of philosophy in real life!
Chris	.(I assume it was Rick you were referring to Frank :)
Kynn	Wow, Guild teachers have real lives? :)
Kynn	Is that ALLOWED? Where do I get one?!
FredGB	GBers can't have them. :-)
frank	Not for you kynn, just for the rest of us!
Rob	Must have missed something. Who's Rick?
Chris	.ROFL
Kynn	Hey! No fair!!
FredGB	Only teachers and members.
Felan	What do you guys think about having multiple 'sections' of a class, such as the HTML 4.0 class? By multiple sections I mean, oh, one starts on the first week of January, one - potentially by another teacher, so each one isn't overburdened - first week of February? First one would end mid-February and give the teacher two weeks off before starting again, for instance.
frank	No, that doesn't work too well, it is difficult to get the necessary raport going!
Carole	Good Idea Leanne. I think it would help everyone involved.
frank	And rapport is v. impotant in online classes
Kynn	Frank, I'm not sure, what are you responding to?
frank	Thats IMO :)
FredGB	That might cut down on the class sizes (i.e. 100 people in JS class).
Carole	I think, Frank that she means several classes at the same time. Correct me if I'm wrong
Kynn	Leanne is suggesting concurrent classes -- my HTML 4.0 class starts in January and runs for 6 weeks until mid Fed; your HTML 4.0 class starts at the beginning of Feb and runs until mid March
FredGB	That's what I understood her to mean.
Kynn	That way we can offer more classes in the same period, but each class still gets one instructor!
Carole	Right! Rapport for your class only, each having its own instructor.
Kynn	Hey, does anyone have any subjects besides classes to talk about? :)
Chris	.I was amazed you considered running a course over the Christmas/New Year break!
Kynn	All our classes take a break over christmas/new years
frank	Ok, got it! And I do think it is good to have two different teachers teaching the same class, allows for Xfertilization of ideas
Kynn	By the way, did anyone read the timeline in the last newsletter?
Chris	.The history timeline??
Rob	Might suit some people - maybe they only get enough free time then.
Carole	Yes, Kynn. We did. Guess it makes me an "oldbie" in the group. :)
Kynn	Yeah the history timeline. It made me realize how far we've come since the start!
Chris	.Never thought of it that way Rob - I was thinking it might halt momentum - but your probably right :)
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Kynn	Good point, Rob -- for some people a christmas break might mean less time, for others it might mean more!
Kynn	In general, though, I think our instructors want christmas off as much as our students!
Felan	I know Kynn told me he'd already mentioned the strategic plan, but I wanted to hear the comments people had about it.
FredGB	Hello TJM.
Chris	.Re: Strategic Plan - I particularly liked the bit about ensuring continuity - that's always difficult with a predominantly volunteer base.
Carole	Kynn, regarding other topics. How do you as ath GB decide upon candidates for the elected positions. I ask because of Doris Kyburz and her experience.
Kynn	Hello, TJM! Welcome to our town hall meeting. This is free-form discussion, and today we're running along quite quickly, it seems!
Carole	Hi TJM
Rob	Sure Kynn, but they could give out, say, double assignemnts for the extra time.
Carole	Rob's a workaholic, I think! ;)
Kynn	Carole, we generally consider someone's experience, their record of volunteering with the Guild, the specific qualities they'd bring to the board, how well their personality meshes with the people already on the GB, and their general vision for the Guild.
Rob	No way. Rob's actually semi-retired ;-)
Kynn	Record of volunteerism is important because being on the Board can be a big commitment -- we estimate at least 10 hours a week -- and so it's easier to judge someone's commitment if they have a "track record" to speak of.
Kynn	Double assignments, aie. :)
Carole	Sounds good, Kynn. I'll let Doris know. She's very interested and a relatively new member.
Rob	Guess you're right - should devote that time to partying ;-)
Felan	"Has she been with the Guild for at least a year, Carole?
Carole	Rob, I didn't know you were semi-retired.
Kynn	We're looking for someone right now to replace Dain Anderson, and we have 2 'open' slots as well that we could fill if we find someone qualified.
Kynn	I expect that most if not all of our current board members will be returning (re-appointed) in February.
FredGB	Actually, 3 Kynn, plus Dain's.
FredGB	We can have up to 12 GB members.
Carole	Leanne, I think she has. She is a professor, teaching in a University in Japan, is from Switzerland. Her native language is German, she speaks fluent Japanese and English. That's why she's interested in Anns position.
Rob	Actually Carole, it's more like fully retired - but I do a few bits and pieces here and there, and some time I might go back to serious work, so I say "semi".
Carole	Kynn, am I qualified for anything other than being the mouthpiece for unhappy members?
frank	I'm semi-retired as well
Felan	We've set the Board as 11, though, Fred.
Felan	Interested in Ann's position?
frank	Carole, when you talk about Ann's position do you mean the position of director of education?
Carole	I don't have time to be semi retired. Yes, frank. That's what she's interested in, though Finance is of interest to her as well.
FredGB	Okay, I thought it was still 12. Goes to show how much I pay attention sometimes. :-)
Felan	That position is not related to her Board position.
Felan	We can have up to 12, Fred. But we set it specifically at 9, then raised it to 11. We can have up to 12 without changing the bylaws, more specifically.
Felan	The online education one, I mean.
Kynn	Well our maximum by the bylaws is 12; the exact number can vary from 1 (I think) to 12, at the board's discretion. So we set it to 11 once, and have 8 currently.
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Kynn	Yeah, Ann's position as Director of Online Education is not, strictly speaking, a board position -- it's definitely not tied to her board seat which "expires" in February.
Carole	Ok, Leanne. I'll let her know. She's moving to the Berkely campus next year, so that's another reason she got interested. She's anxious to become a very active member of the guild.
FredGB	Howdy Razin.
Kynn	Theoretically, Ann could quit the board and still be Director of Online Education. But I don't think she'll quit the GB and I don't think any of us would let her! :)
Carole	Hi Razin.
Razin	hello..
Felan	There are certainly other positions that someone could fill as well, volunteer-wise.
Razin	I was trying to usse IRC to logon
Razin	this my first tiem
Razin	tiime
Razin	time
Razin	type
Kynn	Carole, if Doris wants to help, we always have a need for volunteers!
FredGB	I'm on IRC too. I like it much better than the java mode.
FredGB	:-)
Kynn	Sometimes we have difficulty in fitting them in the right places, but that's one of the things we're working on developing as part of the 'stable infrastructure' point of our strategic plan.
Razin	I think I must have logged to the wron g server? is that possible
Carole	Excellent, sir.
FredGB	What were you looking for Razin?
Mdabrowsk	I'll be sure to volunteer for something soon enough. I just need to get my money in. :)
Kynn	I dunno, Razin, what did you try? If you tried www.hwg.org it's not right; irc.hwg.org 6667 should work, though.
FredGB	Don't have to be a paid member to volunteer Mda.
Razin	well I am more comfortabnle on IRC and I failed to get the right cahnnel.. no bother here though I will figure it out.. thanks
Carole	Dues are due?
Kynn	Yeah, anyone can volunteer!
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Kynn	Dues are due whenever they're due. :) We encourage everyone to pay dues because it helps support the Guild and plus you get discounts on online education!
Kynn	Dues last for a year -- so they're due after a year again.
Carole	I know. He said as soon as he got his money in. LOL
Rob	What's the ratio of paid to unpaid members?
Kynn	Let me see if I can find it, Rob. Right now it's rather low -- we have a lot more unpaid members than paid members.
Felan	Very small to very large, alas, Rob.
Kynn	Paid membership drives are something we may consider in the near future, but as of yet we haven't really put any pressure on anyone. :)
Carole	Whooie, I thought you "had" to pay your dues to become a member!
Carole	We need to do that drive ,soon, then I think.
Kynn	No, you can be a Trial member for free.
Kynn	But it sucks, because you have to pay twice as much for classes. :)
Carole	But, isn't there a time limit on trial memberships? If not, why not?
Felan	There sort of is and sort of isn't, Carole.
Kynn	Figures from earlier this month show that in general we have about 95% unpaid, 5% paid.
Kynn	We ask people to be Trial members for no more than a year.
Felan	After a year, we try to get trial members to become Full members.
Kynn	However, we're not about turning people out in the cold -- and some folks just _can't_ pay, for whatever reason.
Felan	We don't automatically kick them out if they don't, though.
Carole	Yuch! We need to fix that.
Chris	I know that sounds bad - but 5% paid is an enormous improvement on what it used to be!
Kynn	Plus, from a practical standpoint, if they remain a trial member, they are still members of the Guild -- and they can, sometime in the future, elect to be paid members.
Kynn	Yeah, 5% is up a great deal. :)
Felan	What, precisely, do we need to fix, Carole?
Kynn	5% is over 5,000 paid members -- which is actually not a bad number for an organization.
Carole	I never tell anyone the Guild is Free, course I didn't know that and I still won't!
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Carole	Leanne, the free memberships exceeding the paid memberships. :)
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Kynn	I never tell people the Guild is free, either -- _someone_ has to pay for everything...so I encourage people to be that someone, if they see benefit of it!
Razin	I don't mind paying dues
Kynn	Yeah, once we get the new new database in place, it won't be so hard to track members and politely "nag" the trial members.
Kynn	Me neither, Razin. :)
FredGB	Well, Carole, you need to keep in mind one thing Trial members do for us...
Carole	I try to give them lots of reasons for seeing the benefits.
Felan	Well, yeah. I want more rather than less. But, like Kynn, I don't want to just say 'after a year, you're out!'
heath	What's the one thing, Fred?
Carole	No, but how about, classes are cheaper. Etc.
FredGB	A very good portion of them use the Logo, which gives us tons of free advertising, thus more members, who might become paid members.
heath	Yeah, that's how I found you.
heath	and I'm paid-up.
Mdabrowsk	Sheesh. I have to run. It's been fun lurking, though. I'll contact somebody about volunteering this weekend.
Mdabrowsk	Good night.
Carole	There are a lot of people who refer to the Guild as the "snobs", unfortunately.
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Felan	Snobs? Us?
Carole	Bye, Mdabrowsk. See you soon.
Razin	do snobs breathe?
heath	How can the Guild be snobs with all those unpaid members?
Razin	so I would like to say that I have enjoyed dispplaying the logo on my site and I payed dues for a coouple years I think
frank	Why do they think we are snobs?
Carole	Yes, can you believe it! I told some of my programmer cronies about us and the reply was "You belong to the HTML Snobs?"
Razin	Don't get much out of the Guild thought
Rob	MAybe no-one admits to being an unpaid member, only to being a member.
Razin	O honestly have no idea what it does
Felan	Why do they think we're snobs, Carole?
Felan	Have you looked over our website, Razin?
Carole	They think we preach too much and practice very little.
Razin	yea, quirte a few times.. nothing there to interest me
Razin	sorry bout the spelling I'm tired
FredGB	Not even the mailing lists Razin?
frank	Well, we have to preach, it's in our charter!
Razin	geez I get about 300 letters a day.. I have not really tried the lists.. well
Razin	wait a minute I think I did once
Razin	and the lists I was on cancelled
Razin	maybe I will take another look
Razin	I do read some of my mail
frank	I got to go! Nice meeting you all
Razin	I wonder what would attract morepeople to want to pay?
heath	bye.
FredGB	Bye Frank.
Chris	Bye Frank
*** frank has quit IRC (Leaving.)
Rob	Bye Frank
Carole	True. I agree, that's one of the reasons I joined. But they think that a significant number of sites posting membership don't adhere to good programming practices.
Carole	Bye Frank
Razin	without a doubt keeping the image a little more respectful would be nice
Kynn	Ah, so they misunderstand the purpose of the HWG.
Razin	I figure its a quality staement for me
Razin	statement
Kynn	The old "we think you must suck as an organization because one of your members has a bad page and they display your logo."
Razin	I display the logo to show I have quality stuff.. nice logo really
Rob	What attracted me to pay was the on-line courses being cheaper for members.
Carole	Yes, Kynn, that's the story.
Carole	They didn't have classes when I joined, Rob. :)
Razin	I apid because I thought dues was fair
Razin	paid
Kynn	Do you tell them that the purpose of the Guild is to help people improve, but we can't force anything on anyone?
Felan	Well, a significant number of sites posting membership _don't_. However, we can't control that - it's not like the Guild can say 'do this!' and expect that everyone will...
FredGB	Or then we would be snobs.
Kynn	I mean, if we _did_ kick people out for poor design, not only would we not have very many members, but we WOULD be the snobs they accuse us of being!
Carole	Yes. Actually, I think they are a bit snobish about it! :)
Razin	MAybe if the logo use was restricted to the members own biz site only - it will always look best
Rob	And, if I was working full-time in the industry, I'd certainly join/stay a paid member
Kynn	We're actually anti-snobs!
Razin	hey Kynn don't get carried away there
Kynn	That's funny to be accused of being snobs because we accept anyone. :)
Razin	victims
FredGB	Biz sites aren't necessarily up to standard either Razin.
Carole	LOL, I know. I just thought you'd be interested in hearing some of the gossip behind closed doors.
Razin	nope I've seen some bad ones too
Razin	but they still are usually the persons best offering
Carole	You can say that again, Razin.
Rob	Has any consideration ever been given to making the Logo program only available to paid members?
Felan	I'm not working in the industry, but I'm a full member - then again, I have to be! Board members have to be even if they haven't taken any classes or anything like that.
Felan	That is interesting, Carole, but also weird.
Kynn	We've thought about it, Rob, but frankly it's our best advertising.
Kynn	Last time I checked altavista, our logo was on over 100,000 web pages that link back to the HWG web site.
FredGB	Was considered Rob, but dropped.
Kynn	Many of our members first heard about us from the logo! I did, in fact.
FredGB	Me too.
Rob	Well, they say it never hurts to advertise!
Kynn	Also 'policing' paid member logo use would be very very difficult.
Razin	I can't remember which came first the club or the logo
Chris	Its probably not untrue to say that the HWG harbours snobs - but then, we also harbour non-snobs (if that's a word :)
FredGB	And that was one reason we let all members use it.
Razin	this could be important
Kynn	That's true, Chris, there are plenty of people in the Guild who _are_ "HTML snobs"
Kynn	But there are plenty who are more than willing to help people, and what we're about _is_ "snobby" in a way.
Kynn	We're about everyone learning to do web design "right".
Razin	tell you waht
Kynn	And I suppose there's some snobbery in the concept, although it's not intentional but it could be seen that way.
Carole	I guess I kinda am one of those snobs. I preach a lot to newbie "wanna be" web designers.
Razin	Guilds are traditionally run by snobs
Razin	I'm glad y'all are normal
Rob	Thanks
Kynn	Hee. :)
Carole	giggle
Chris	Gee - we sure fooled him :)
FredGB	Well, not me, I'm abnormal. :-)
Razin	always one misfit
Carole	abnormal, or A.B.Normal?
FredGB	And darn proud of it too!!!
Carole	LOL
Razin	his momloved him
Kynn	Heh. Fred is our troublemaker!
Razin	good 4 u Fred!
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Carole	Good for YOU, Fred!
Razin	how bout a new logo.. one that sparkles?
Kynn	Eek sparkly logo. :)
Razin	maybe make that one sparkle
Rob	A question on a different topic - what proportion of HWG members are from the US?
Kynn	Right now I think we're gonna probably keep the logo as it is.
Carole	What, the gold doesn't sparkle enough?
Razin	shockwaave version
Kynn	Rob -- most of them at the moment, although I don't have the exact figure in front of me.
Razin	well it could twinkle or something
Kynn	Most of our members are in the US or Canada.
Razin	just a little
Razin	a respectfull sorta twinkle
Kynn	Heh. Respectful twinkle.
FredGB	It's almost certainly above 75%.
Rob	And at the moment, a quarter of this meeting is Ozzies!
Razin	and maybe get 2000 laid accross it
Carole	Naw, Razin. So many people turn off images just because of "twinkles"
Razin	ABC has 2000 in their logo on tv right now
Kynn	What time is it in Australia?
Razin	whoa
FredGB	Yeah, bit then you have people wanting a plain Logo cause animated gifs take too much bandwidth.
Carole	about 12 noonish? I think, tomorrow.
FredGB	bit=but
Rob	In Melbourne, 13:17 Friday 29th
Chris	1:30pm
Razin	do like the blue ribbon crowd, multiple lgos
Chris	Where abouts in Melbourne Rob?
FredGB	Multiple Logos?? Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob	BTW, the Newsletter has the wrong date for the GMT time of these townhall meetings.
Kynn	Fred used to be the manager of our logo team. He still has nightmares.
Razin	okay how bout the 2000 thing
Chris	I see that logo management streak coming through again Fred :)
Kynn	Rob, can you send me the correct time?
Razin	check out the abc logo on tv
Razin	2000 is hot
Kynn	2000 will be trite in a few months. :)
Carole	But 2001 is real.
Razin	I'll use what ever you have
Rob	Kynn - currently 13:21 NOW
Kynn	One thing about HWG logos -- logos last forever on the web.
FredGB	Yeah, but it's NOT THE START OF THE NEXT MILLINIUM!! OR THE 21ST CENTURY!!!!
Razin	I just wanted to sooner or later come by here nad see for myself who is here
Razin	well maybe not
Kynn	Rob, I meant, can you send me a correction for the newsletter? :)
Razin	but we are dealing with whats hot
Rob	Come on Fred, don't start that again ...
Razin	not whats real
Kynn	Okay, we seem to be getting a big off topic. :)
Razin	what is the topic?
Kynn	And we're approaching the 2 hour mark -- so I think it's probably time to call it a night.
Carole	this is a riot! ROFL
Rob	Sorry Kynn - the GMT date will be a day later than the PDT/EDT dates, rather than the same date.
FredGB	The topic was the Logo.
Kynn	Thank you to Leanne, Fred, and Frank for showing up to represent the board!
Carole	Yes, a date line justification.
Rob	Night??? It's just taking up my lunchtime!
Kynn	Okay, call it a meeting. :)
FredGB	It's a meeting.
Kynn	My apologies, it's almost 8:30 p.m. here and I'm sure Khyri would like to go home! :)
Kynn	Thanks Fred!
Carole	Sounds good to me, too.
FredGB	10:30 PM here
Kynn	So, /gavel /gavel we're outta here. :)
Rob	Well, it was certainly an interesting first one for me. See you next time.
Kynn	You can hang around for a while if you like!
Kynn	But the meeting is 'officially' over.
Carole	See you next meeting, Rob.
Kynn	Bye everyone!
Razin	1130 here
FredGB	Cool. Night everybody.
Razin	bye y'all thanks 4 having me
Kynn	Sure thing!
Kynn	Bye! *** Razin has quit IRC (Leaving.)
Carole	Night everybody who's leaving. *** Kynn is now known as Kynn_away
Khyri	Oh, we're going to go home!
FredGB	Night Liz.
Khyri	There goes a flying pig..... :)
Carole	Nite Liz.
Khyri	Now I just have to find the IRC QUIT command!
Rob	Bye all.
* Rob has quit IRC (Bye.) * Khyri has quit IRC (.. Leaving.)
Chris	I suppose I better get some real work done :) Catch you all later
FredGB	Later Chris.
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Carole	Me three. 9:30 in Denver and I still have 6 questions to answer.
FredGB	Bye
Carole	G'nite everybody.
* Carole has quit IRC (Bye.) * Felan has quit IRC (Leaving.) *** FredGB has quit IRC (Leaving.) Session Close: Thu Oct 28 20:27:12 1999

End of meeting.